re capitol hill defense hour

The city of Seattle is facing a substantial increase in crime and the crimes have included serious violence against the following types of persons:
ordinary persons living in or visiting capitol hill
persons of unusual sexual orientation in capitol hill and/or downtown
tourists.

I did some open carry of an airsoft, which apparently per smc is illegal, apparently, after I was assaulted several weeks ago.

Anyway, I believe that assault and robbery in seattle would be reduced by greater gun and weapon possession and training on the part of the public . . .
and supposedly, King county has only about 4% of persons with concealed carry permits and the city of Seattle and capitol hill areas are probably even lower.

I'd like to take a few Saturday or Sundays a month at Cal Anderson park where people can greet me or us, and learn some basics of weapon possessions, safety, laws and use.

Would anyone like to join me, if I do so, either with open carry or concealed carry?

Thanks!

There should be a strong demand for some visits, given that the community is on edge due to vicious beatings and assaults, but I would always expect to start small . . .

You might want to check out this video I made months ago, its along the same lines. I might be up for helping you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBN8ap125WU

jsanchez said:

You might want to check out this video I made months ago, its along the same lines. I might be up for helping you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBN8ap125WU

Click to expand...

Thanks; I am watching the video . . . Seattle has an online crime map but I don't know if they have a victim proofing program!

If they did, one step would be being armed or having pepper spray . . . although, I think the greater possible benefit is if bystanders have the pepper spray or arms, and observe the beating . . . some of the assaults on capitol hill or downtown have happened so fast and left people unconscious that they would not have been able to draw a handgun or pepper spray, but there were witnesses and bystanders who could have intervened . . .

Are you in King County, if I may ask?

I read the local news every day . . . and every few weeks we read of some horrible and vicious attack on persons downtown or on capitol hill . . . the most recent case was of 3 out-of-state tourists being burned, assaulted and robbed while at a downtown Seattle bus stop.

Open carrying an airsoft gun is a good up until a mugger doesn't see it or doesn't care.

You can get pistol-shaped pepper spray dispensers, and there are pepper balls for both airsoft and paintball guns.

For example, on the holdout end of things:


http://goblinpaintball.com/deuce

http://www.pepperball.com/projectiles/

Difdi said:

Open carrying an airsoft gun is a good up until a mugger doesn't see it or doesn't care.

Click to expand...

An implied threat that you cannot follow through on. Hollow. If you want to defend yourself, do so. If you choose to play airsoft games with a veiled threat, you could find yourself bleeding on the ground." Life is hard, it's harder when your stupid." John Wayne

If you choose to arm yourself, do so with something that will meet the threat level you expect. If you have no experiance in firearms, please ask and someone close to your area will help you. Please be accurate when preaching your newly found mission. Sometimes zeal has a tendency to get away from us.

Good luck and Welcome to OCDO.

jsanchez said:

You might want to check out this video I made months ago, its along the same lines. I might be up for helping you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBN8ap125WU

Click to expand...

Your video suggests that many crimes involve those that can be defined as opportunistic crimes...crimes that occur simply because the perp thinks its low lying fruit...a perp committing a crime on a perceived easy target...that otherwise may not occur.

I've never seen (or looked into) this aspect of crime cause and effects. Have any data or link to such information?

I'm not a big "lets get together with cops and work together to solve crime". But more of a "allow people to utilize the tools that God gave us to solve this issue on an individual or group case by case basis".

I do not profess to be a criminologist or similar, for the record.

davidmcbeth said:

Your video suggests that many crimes involve those that can be defined as opportunistic crimes...crimes that occur simply because the perp thinks its low lying fruit...a perp committing a crime on a perceived easy target...that otherwise may not occur.

I've never seen (or looked into) this aspect of crime cause and effects. Have any data or link to such information?

I'm not a big "lets get together with cops and work together to solve crime". But more of a "allow people to utilize the tools that God gave us to solve this issue on an individual or group case by case basis".

I do not profess to be a criminologist or similar, for the record.

Click to expand...

There are not enough of the cops to stop many of the crimes or even to be preventing, apparently, the significant increase in crimes on capitol hill.

A single blow by an assailant may kill, disable or render a person unconscious. However, in the case of at least two of the major muggings reported in local news media, there were witnesses, bystanders or friends who could have intervened after the first blow against the primary victim. Moreover, in the case of another of the beatings, the beating took place on a busy street 25 minutes before sundown on a day after people had been celebrating a festival a few blocks away. The news doesn't tell us how many, if any, bystanders there were, but some people believe that there were bystanders at Denny and Yale at 8:45 p.m., a place that I think was within a mile of Seattle pride festivities.

If persons on Capitol hill become armed, then, attackers will have a risk that their first blow will not disable him and every attacker will face a risk that armed bystanders will intervene. I am not a lawyer, but Washington state is a stand-your-ground state by court ruling, and a single punch of the fist has the potential of killing another person and it was in the news a few months ago that a single fist punch had killed someone.

So, what kind of risk should the attackers be facing?

z

davidmcbeth said:

Your video suggests that many crimes involve those that can be defined as opportunistic crimes...crimes that occur simply because the perp thinks its low lying fruit...a perp committing a crime on a perceived easy target...that otherwise may not occur.

I've never seen (or looked into) this aspect of crime cause and effects. Have any data or link to such information?

I'm not a big "lets get together with cops and work together to solve crime". But more of a "allow people to utilize the tools that God gave us to solve this issue on an individual or group case by case basis".

I do not profess to be a criminologist or similar, for the record.

Click to expand...

Hey I just trying to humiliate the cops for not doing their job, which I think is to teach people how not to be victims of all crime. Just start with murder, robbery, and burglary. Tell the truth about whats going on and then your there, "allow people to utilize the tools that God gave us to solve this issue on an individual or group case by case basis". Give the people the info, every generation has to be taught.

the first blow game entertained by thugs has swept the country... it is a game i do not understand the purpose for or the high one attains after administering the punch. that said it is one which has proved elusive to defend against unless an individual maintains a constant and high SA,

when you raised the specter there is a rise in the news articles of these crimes coupled with the comment about the police are professing to be under staff leads me to be skeptical that this isn't a concerted ploy to get the police budget raised by showing the casual effect of no police to crime stats and to get the council to approve more money.

pushing to get the police out of their vehicle ~ what a novel idea ~ to patrol the streets would be a first step to mitigate these type of assaults. finally, you state there are plenty of witnesses...yet you have not heard of arrests...trust me those committing the one knock out game and such are known hooligans to the police... push and find out why they have not been arrested if there are so many witnesses?

now the salt in the wound about your scheme...

you want the good citizens of your community to be armed to intercede in these crimes and take justice into their own hands...won't work!

don't have to go far to verify that...just read the OCOD member's attitudes about interceding in situations...with minor exception most won't!!! continue reading as most provide rational on their hesitation to interject themselves into those types of situations. these are individuals who, again for the most part are appropriately trained and continue to train to defend THEMSELVES or their loved ones ONLY!

just want you to realize, while your scheme sounds viable, on a whole, JQPublic, with minor exception, will not interject themselves in other's tragedy and those that do end up dead for trying to do the right thing. just one example mentioned on the forum from 3 days ago:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?130895-Was-no-one-able-to-defend-this-woman

reality bites...but from what you report IMHO you have a political ploy afoot which needs addressing first.

ipse

MSG Laigaie said:

An implied threat that you cannot follow through on. Hollow. If you want to defend yourself, do so. If you choose to play airsoft games with a veiled threat, you could find yourself bleeding on the ground." Life is hard, it's harder when your stupid." John Wayne

If you choose to arm yourself, do so with something that will meet the threat level you expect. If you have no experiance in firearms, please ask and someone close to your area will help you. Please be accurate when preaching your newly found mission. Sometimes zeal has a tendency to get away from us.

Good luck and Welcome to OCDO.

Click to expand...

Did you perhaps click reply on the wrong post? I'd like to welcome you to OCDO in the same spirit!

solus said:

the first blow game entertained by thugs has swept the country... it is a game i do not understand the purpose for

ipse

Click to expand...

Lets suppose you are right that those carrying are highly reluctant to take action in the case of assaults against other people in their presence or in their vicinity. There is a natural reluctance for legal and moral reasons to shot in a case unless someone else has been shooting. Part of the risk is the risk of Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon 2, in which the Gibson character in plain clothes interrupted the filming of a movie. . . and it is not always obvious who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

It seems to me that there are several ways that a person might carry: open carry pepper spray, concealed carry pepper spray, open carry empty holster, open carry, concealed carry, concealed carry with concealed carry pepper spray and concealed carry with open carry pepper spray. There is also empty holster with concealed carry of pepper spray and there is empty holster with open carry of pepper spray.

A news article in the local news media a few years ago indicated that King County had a 4% ccl rate. I assume that Seattle has a lower rate than King county as a whole, because of several factors. If for no other reason, the people of Seattle have less discretionary income than those on the eastside and it costs to buy handguns and obtain licensing.

What we know from the news media reports is that there are small groups of persons who opportunistically attack individuals downtown and on capitol hill and elsewhere. Perhaps they are bullies from school who have graduated from the playground to downtown and capitol hill . . . although in two of the cases reported by the news media, the bullies were in fact still of school age and beat up someone else of school age. It appears that a significant portion of these gangs of bullies, although they have graduated from the school playground, have not yet graduated to armed muggings and armed robberies. One assault began with a cigarette; one assault was done with a skateboard; several assaults began with fist punches.

It is an easy matter to purchase pepper spray with a velcro wrap and to wear it on the wrist or even to wear it in the palm. Ordering the spray costs less than $25. I have walked downtown and at Greenlake and at capitol hill and never seen open carry of pepper spray by anyone other than myself, though I suppose police have it somewhere on their belt, at least sometimes.

Some of the people who are downtown Seattle during the daytime are commuters for work and they live in areas of less worry about crime.

The question is whether or not, if 5% or 2% or 10% was carrying something--open carry of pepper spray, empty holster, open carry, cc or whatever their conscience and comfort level and training made appropriate for the individuals carrying--would that reduce the rate of assaults being done by unarmed gangs who strike opportunistically weak targets in their vicinity who are walking by?

The most recent major newsworthy assault was of a group attacking 3 out-of-state tourists and the assault began by using a cigarette to burn one of them.
If the assault goes like this: cigarette burn, get pepper sprayed and arrested immediately . . . that would have a strong immediate deterrent effect on the fellow who was sprayed.

There are people who have been pepper sprayed and who are so upset about it that they are suing either the SPD or the security guard for ongoing psychological trauma and pain and suffering.

Armed bystanders don't have to simply do nothing or shoot to kill . . . The question simply is, if 5 or 10% were merely open carrying pepper spray, would that have a deterrent effect on the gangs of unarmed youths who opportunitistically attack the weak? I personally think that at somewhere between 0% and 50% open carrying pepper spray, there will be a deterrent effect on beatings such as took place at Denny and Yale in daylight on 6/28, regarded by some people as a busy street with bystanders and passerby.

zaitz said:

Lets suppose you are right that those carrying are highly reluctant to take action in the case of assaults against other people in their presence or in their vicinity. There is a natural reluctance for legal and moral reasons to shot in a case unless someone else has been shooting. Part of the risk is the risk of Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon 2, in which the Gibson character in plain clothes interrupted the filming of a movie. . . and it is not always obvious who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

It seems to me that there are several ways that a person might carry: open carry pepper spray, concealed carry pepper spray, open carry empty holster, open carry, concealed carry, concealed carry with concealed carry pepper spray and concealed carry with open carry pepper spray. There is also empty holster with concealed carry of pepper spray and there is empty holster with open carry of pepper spray.

A news article in the local news media a few years ago indicated that King County had a 4% ccl rate. I assume that Seattle has a lower rate than King county as a whole, because of several factors. If for no other reason, the people of Seattle have less discretionary income than those on the eastside and it costs to buy handguns and obtain licensing.

What we know from the news media reports is that there are small groups of persons who opportunistically attack individuals downtown and on capitol hill and elsewhere. Perhaps they are bullies from school who have graduated from the playground to downtown and capitol hill . . . although in two of the cases reported by the news media, the bullies were in fact still of school age and beat up someone else of school age. It appears that a significant portion of these gangs of bullies, although they have graduated from the school playground, have not yet graduated to armed muggings and armed robberies. One assault began with a cigarette; one assault was done with a skateboard; several assaults began with fist punches.

It is an easy matter to purchase pepper spray with a velcro wrap and to wear it on the wrist or even to wear it in the palm. Ordering the spray costs less than $25. I have walked downtown and at Greenlake and at capitol hill and never seen open carry of pepper spray by anyone other than myself, though I suppose police have it somewhere on their belt, at least sometimes.

Some of the people who are downtown Seattle during the daytime are commuters for work and they live in areas of less worry about crime.

The question is whether or not, if 5% or 2% or 10% was carrying something--open carry of pepper spray, empty holster, open carry, cc or whatever their conscience and comfort level and training made appropriate for the individuals carrying--would that reduce the rate of assaults being done by unarmed gangs who strike opportunistically weak targets in their vicinity who are walking by?

The most recent major newsworthy assault was of a group attacking 3 out-of-state tourists and the assault began by using a cigarette to burn one of them.
If the assault goes like this: cigarette burn, get pepper sprayed and arrested immediately . . . that would have a strong immediate deterrent effect on the fellow who was sprayed.

There are people who have been pepper sprayed and who are so upset about it that they are suing either the SPD or the security guard for ongoing psychological trauma and pain and suffering.

Armed bystanders don't have to simply do nothing or shoot to kill . . . The question simply is, if 5 or 10% were merely open carrying pepper spray, would that have a deterrent effect on the gangs of unarmed youths who opportunitistically attack the weak? I personally think that at somewhere between 0% and 50% open carrying pepper spray, there will be a deterrent effect on beatings such as took place at Denny and Yale in daylight on 6/28, regarded by some people as a busy street with bystanders and passerby.

Click to expand...

first do your homework!

second, pick a better movie, how bout Bronson's movies ...where the concept began of defending the neighbourhood with a sock filled with quarters...still a viable self defense weapon for close quarter (pun intended) tactics.

third, wait your initial rant indicated these attacks are recent...now i am suppose to take your word when you say news media report over the last several years?

speaking of, you can't find current stats on carry? or is your al gore invention stuck searching a couple of years back instead of today's reality?

and ppl are suing PD and Security forces after allegedly suffering psychological distress from being peppered sprayed and you want the good WA citizens to carry it so they can endure the same legal discomfort? think my point of why folk do not wish to involve themselves has been made

missing cites for all your bovine information...forum rule. fix it!!

fourth, you are hung up defending one's self and others in a close quarter tactic mentality. if you are close enough to use pepper spray...and the can goes PHFFFFffffff you have done nothing but piss off the attacker who will wreak their revenge on you ~ severely!! been sprayed...those determined and those under a substance's control will arise after your wittle can is empty even angrier than they started...woe be to the sprayer.

fifth, research tactics and discern for yourself if it is better to defend one's self in close quarters against a gaggle or at a distance...

lad, see one above...then provide something of substance instead of your rant to defend in close quarters w/pepper or accept the fact your post could be labeled as a drive by presented by a self serving troll.

ipse

solus said:

first do your homework!

ipse

Click to expand...

Thanks for your feedback . . . You seem irritated with me for giving a suggestion to the people of Seattle . . . and it doesn't matter to me whether they or some of them choose open carry, concealed carry or pepper spray. I am saying that an increase in any of those things is likely over time to have a deterrent effect on the opportunistic crimes being done . . . and that each person might wish to be armed with what suits them, given their training and comfort.

You are concerned that I have not provided you with exact dates for 5 to 7 major foolish assaults? Does it suffice to say that the neighborhood is concerned and upset about them and some have occurred in the last few months and others within the last few years?

Help Wanted ??? (Head Scratchn' Smiley)

zaitz said:

The city of Seattle is facing a substantial increase in crime and the crimes have included serious violence against the following types of persons:
ordinary persons living in or visiting capitol hill
persons of unusual sexual orientation in capitol hill and/or downtown
tourists.

I did some open carry of an airsoft, which apparently per smc is illegal, apparently, after I was assaulted several weeks ago.

Anyway, I believe that assault and robbery in seattle would be reduced by greater gun and weapon possession and training on the part of the public . . .
and supposedly, King county has only about 4% of persons with concealed carry permits and the city of Seattle and capitol hill areas are probably even lower.

I'd like to take a few Saturday or Sundays a month at Cal Anderson park where people can greet me or us, and learn some basics of weapon possessions, safety, laws and use.

Would anyone like to join me, if I do so, either with open carry or concealed carry?

Thanks!

There should be a strong demand for some visits, given that the community is on edge due to vicious beatings and assaults, but I would always expect to start small . . .

Click to expand...

I would like to address your original post with a re-iteration of MSG Laigaie's, post #5. It is not clear to me what your mission is yet sounds honorable, at least on the surface.
There is a diverse group of people here who have likely done the laws research and are often willing and ready to assist if you ask.


Regarding your question about deterring crimes of opportunity by the simple act of carrying I would first ask you a couple of questions.

1. "Do you believe if you were carrying a "deterrent" you would not have been assaulted"?
2. "Are you willing AND able to use said "deterrent" shall the need arise"?

The weak and unassuming have always been and always will be targets of opportunity, it is a human condition. Your "deterrent" levels the field so to speak, provided you can answer yes to the aforementioned questions.

I would be up for helping folks learn basic fire arms safety and defense skills but am apprehensive to get too involved in something I know nothing about. As solus has stated, you will probably not get willing participants to intercede on some one else's behalf, reality bites. My premise for providing help is based on the idea everyone is responsible for their own safety and everyone has to start somewhere.


~Whitney

Whitney said:

I would like to address your original post with a re-iteration of MSG Laigaie's, post #5. It is not clear to me what your mission is yet sounds honorable, at least on the surface.
There is a diverse group of people here who have likely done the laws research and are often willing and ready to assist if you ask.


Regarding your question about deterring crimes of opportunity by the simple act of carrying I would first ask you a couple of questions.

1. "Do you believe if you were carrying a "deterrent" you would not have been assaulted"?
2. "Are you willing AND able to use said "deterrent" shall the need arise"?

~Whitney

Click to expand...

I believe that openly carrying pepper spray and/or a handgun and/or an airsoft reduces the risk of some assaults. Carrying an airsoft is apparently illegal in Seattle. Openly carrying pepper spray is not noticed much . . . people don't notice or recognize it as such.

When you speak of open carry, I am sure you normally mean open carry of a loaded handgun or rifle. Because I was thinking of a deterrent, I included open carry of unloaded airsoft and unloaded handguns.

As for using the deterrent, that would depend on the provocation . . . I open carry pepper spray on my wrist frequently and I would tend to use that to stop assaults on myself or others, if the assaults are more serious than a slap. As for using a loaded handgun . . . If I were to carry it, I would tend to use it in a case of another person shooting at others without good cause and perhaps in the case of a person hitting or kicking another. I have not thought much about the case of my getting beat up . . .

In a case such as that of Trayvon Martin and Zimmerman . . . I would tend to use a handgun, if it was available to me, to stop an attacker on myself or another person.

Whitney said:

I would like to address your original post with a re-iteration of MSG Laigaie's, post #5.


~Whitney

Click to expand...

I have been attending a martial arts class on capitol hill on Sundays from 1 to 3 and I have scheduled a simple capitol hill defense hour for this Sunday 9/6/15 from 3:10 to 3:45 at Cal Anderson Park. I don't particularly think anyone will show, but I do read books and I meditate and I will be happy to read or meditate for a while . . . I posted a note in the events section of craigslist . . .

I tend to dress in black pants and a black shirt and I assume I will have pepper spray on my wrist and an empty holster on my belt.

Whitney said:

I would like to address your original post with a re-iteration of MSG Laigaie's, post #5. It is not clear to me what your mission is yet sounds honorable, at least on the surface.
~Whitney

Click to expand...

Here are two posts on my blog which may give you more of the idea of my views and intention . . .

the blog is a creation resulting from my walking at Greenlake park in undies, and also taking photos in public places, resulting in my having been threatened several times and mildly assaulted twice.

http://greenlakewalking.net/seattle-armed-bystander-intervention-or-not/

Here is a blog posting on the topic of false faulty and exaggerated calls made to 911 on persons openly carrying . . . and related topics
http://greenlakewalking.net/exaggeration-in-911-calls-re-guns-re-ie/

NavyLCDR said:

What?!? They are attacking 100% straight heterosexuals now?!!!

Click to expand...

+1

You sir, just made me snort lemonade all over my keyboard. Thank God I went for hospital grade/dishwasher safe on it.

NavyLCDR said:

What?!? They are attacking 100% straight heterosexuals now?!!!

Click to expand...

I've read that news articles implying there are probably one or two of them thrown into the mix of those being or having been attacked on capitol hill Seattle . . .

Me . . . I walk at Greenlake in skimpy undies . . . supposedly one person in 20,000 or 30,000 felt I was danger to a kid by walking past peacefully on the path . . . but the police don't regard that fear as reasonable and sufficient to justify arresting or charging me for undie-walking . . .

So we don't really know if I am 85% or 95% heterosexual . . . maybe wearing thigh-highs while walking reduces the number . . .