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Thread: SWATing.

  1. #1
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    SWATing.

    So I had heard about how anti-gunners have been posting (Mom's Demand Action, Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, specifically) to members that they need to call 911 if the ever see someone with a gun; to convey there is a gunman and they feel threatened, etc. I know, really stupid idea. And it sort of happened to me today. That's the sum of it. Detailed story below.

    I was out at Greater's Icecream on Bardstown Rd in the Highlands (around 9:45pm) with my fiance. We were sitting outside enjoying our sundaes while our pooch looked on pitifully. As I walked back in to get him a cup, I noticed a rather large man sweating, eyes bugging out at my hip. I'm OCing my HK P30L in a nice kydex pancake holster, and see him as I walk in. As I am in line, waiting for my turn he approaches me and asks if I have my concealed weapons license. I say I do (I never quite know what to say to this question but it's been asked of me 3 times this year) and before I get a chance to go on he looks relieved and says "oh ok I was just checking". I add on that I don't need one. He looks stunned and confused, and keep in mind this guy is a head taller than me (6'), weighing about 350lbs, and is sweating, getting upset. I explain that this is Kentucky, and here we do not need a license to openly carry firearms. He looks incredulous and says "what's open carry"? "Anything where you're not hiding the firearm, like I am doing" as I rotate my hip to give an example (carrying at 5 o'clock so hard to see if you're facing me). He shuffles off with his kids and I with him a good evening. Get my dog's icecream, we are all outside the store eating happily. About 5 minutes later my fiance decides she wants a scoop of the peach icecream I have so I go to get her one.

    As I am in line, I notice a cop walk in. Then two. Then NINE total. About 10 minutes from when I had last spoken to the "concerned individual" They ask the employees if it was they who had called or if anything was wrong. The lovely girls at the counter said that nothing was the matter, nobody there had called. As they finish and start heading out, I pipe up saying "I'm guessing it was about me?". The nice officers had swept the area briefly, noting my carry but saying nothing. They said it was, but agreed with me when I explained how the guy asked if I had a CCWL and I had told the man I did not need one, they seemed more peeved than anything but said "sorry for the inconvenience". Before leaving they had asked the employees if they were ok with it (me open carrying) and they said "yes".

    Rather enthusiastically, actually. One was going on about her husband open carrying, another saying she had her CCWL, and a third saying she wouldn't work there if the store was against guns. So a BIG thumbs up to Greaters, I have open carried to almost all of their Louisville locations and always a pleasant atmosphere from crew and customers. The crowd was rather supportive too, wondering why someone would call the cops on a guy buying ice cream?

    So, SWATing, guess it's a thing. Can't say I am upset about it. For one thing my OCing was getting no remarks or attention and this was a nice experience to have. But the larger win was that while one disturbed man approached the situation wrong, I was able to make a positive open carry representation to a store full of people.

    I know, the SWAT team wasn't called, and I know several of you have had a cop or two hassle you, but I'm guessing since so many officers showed up through the back entrance of the building, and none of them even approached me or talked to me until I inquired, that the guy had called reporting something other than exactly what I was doing.

    If this doesn't merit it's own thread (not enough folks want to chime in with their experiences) then I guess I can move the post itself to another thread? Just wanted to share an experience.
    Last edited by poetdante; 08-28-2015 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Noticed I got our first scoops at 9:45pm not 9pm

  2. #2
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    Sounds like a nearly perfect experience once some bed-wetting hoplophobe decided to make what was probably in total a false police report. Other than the dispatcher asking some questions to head off the entire thing that is.

    But once the cops showed up it sounds like the cops handled it very well, as did you, and the store employees and other customers.

    Now, if the cops would just go back to the office and have a few words with the dispatcher.

    OTOH, you can imagine how quickly this could get very dangerous for the LAC if the cops were not to handle things so well. Either or nine guns pointed at you by guys who are hopped up on adrenaline wondering if this is the night they don't get to go home is very dangerous. It only takes one person making one small mistake to put you into a casket or wheelchair.

    Idiots or provocateurs making bogus MWAG calls should be heavily prosecuted, similar to fake bomb scares.

    Charles
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    I wonder if I can request the call?

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    You should do a records request for a copy of the 911 (on non-emergency) call, just to see what was said. Also, request a copy of the report which the officer(s) made.

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    Started filling it out as soon as I thought and posted that question here haha

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    And I didn't see your post before I posted mine!

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    I am wanting the 911 call (or non-emergency police call) made between 9:45pm and 10:30pm on August 28, 2015 involving a person with a firearm at Greater's Ice Cream, address 2204 Bardstown Rd Louisville, KY 40205

    Please include the report made by the responding officers(s), there were several of them so I do no know which one would have made it. Thank you kindly.


    Hoping that they understand what I am wanting. Last time I requested open records was for seeing the leasing agreement for someone renting the Water Front for an event and prohibiting firearms. They called me and it took some explaining what records I wanted and what time frame (despite entering that information there already).

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    Oh, it appears as if you had the cops called on you. Why not ask to listen to the 911 recordings of that time period to find out if a 911 call was made.

    Then, if so, did the caller defame you? And would it rise to the level needed to sue (which is zero really ~ welcome to America !) .. this would depend on your state law (which I don't know and its a relatively new issue so there may not be any case law concerning this).

    I would send a demand letter to the caller if so claiming defamation at least.

    Myself, I don't answer questions from cops let alone members of the general public unless my goal of being somewhere is to start such a dialog.

    As you found out, cops do not answer questions of yours. There's a reason for this. You should take heed and do likewise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Oh, it appears as if you had the cops called on you. Why not ask to listen to the 911 recordings of that time period to find out if a 911 call was made.

    Then, if so, did the caller defame you? And would it rise to the level needed to sue (which is zero really ~ welcome to America !) .. this would depend on your state law (which I don't know and its a relatively new issue so there may not be any case law concerning this).

    I would send a demand letter to the caller if so claiming defamation at least.

    Myself, I don't answer questions from cops let alone members of the general public unless my goal of being somewhere is to start such a dialog.

    As you found out, cops do not answer questions of yours. There's a reason for this. You should take heed and do likewise.
    Already did, will probably be getting a PDF transcript rather than a call given the "delivery options" I was allowed to select.

    I'm not mad at the guy. He was wrong to do what he did but I pity him for living in so much fear. He was not defaming me, as he did not know who I was and did not act to ruin my status in a community. Even if he had, I would not bother (believe me, there is a guy in the Appalachian mountains, a city council member in a small town, telling EVERYONE that I am an evil, Russian-Mafia drug-dealing rapist and makes sure to tell this to several congregations of Presbyterians in 4 different states, every chance he has for over the past 3 years)

    I open carry not only as a right but to advocate said right in hopes of bringing about meaningful discourse. It's not been too eventful. It is ALWAYS my goal to open carry because it has a chance of educating folks, that and it's more comfortable than CC for me.

    Cops did answer my question. Had a quick chat but I'm not expecting them to stick around on a Friday night, during peak drinking time, in an area with lots of bars, just to vindicate my hurt feelings

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    And the pitiful pooch? How did he fare throughout this whole ordeal?

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    To poetdante

    Nice post - glad it worked out well.

    I can tell you that if a false report was made and as a result 9 officers showed up, I would set out to make an example of the caller. We have to stop this tactic before it gets worse.

    You can't move the post to a separate thread, but I can. Let me know if you desire that and what thread title you'd like.
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    Congrats to you on 1) getting your dog some ice cream instead of continuing to tease him by eating yours, 2) realizing it is far better to get your fiance her own peach ice cream than to set up the precedent of having to share yours with her, 3) making the effort to educate sweating-guy, and finally 4) to the cops and how they handled the situation. It sounds like if you had not said anything they would have gone on their merry way without ever talking with you.

    It may not have been the official SWAT team making their entrance right behind flash-bangs but 9 cops is 9 cops.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    ...It may not have been the official SWAT team making their entrance right behind flash-bangs but 9 cops is 9 cops...
    Yes, that is why I'd particularly want to have, and want to follow up on the "emergency" call. Depending on what the caller described as the situation, this needs to be followed up on - HARD.
    Last edited by BB62; 08-29-2015 at 10:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dario View Post
    And the pitiful pooch? How did he fare throughout this whole ordeal?
    Dog was oblivious to the whole thing. He and my fiance were sitting outside the front entrance to the store and the line I was in, and the police, were near the back entrance. Now my fiance can hear REALLY well (being blind), an ant crawling 10 feet away or a person running half a mile away, but things were so quiet inside that she was oblivious to the whole thing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    To poetdante

    Nice post - glad it worked out well.

    I can tell you that if a false report was made and as a result 9 officers showed up, I would set out to make an example of the caller. We have to stop this tactic before it gets worse.

    And a clarification on the number of cops. I personally counted 6 in the store, and a few other people said 9. I was at the counter and could not see around a corner leading into a hallway where the back entrance was, which is where I assume the other people in line had a better view and counted the other 3. I'm sticking with 9 cops, but again this is where security footage would be good. Wonder if Greaters would coopoerate

    You can't move the post to a separate thread, but I can. Let me know if you desire that and what thread title you'd like.
    Thanks Grapeshot! I'll see what was on the 911 call. If the guy (assuming it really WAS the guy that talked to me, maybe someone else but unlikely) made an unjust claim then sure, I can try to see what my options are. But it might just as equally be a dispatcher error, a cop who was sent to investigate and deciding he needed backup in case, several circumstances that resulted in the response that they made.

    As for moving the post, I was having that as an option in case the subject/thread was better put elsewhere as deemed by the admins here. Thanks for offering to help.



    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Yes, that is why I'd particularly want to have, and want to follow up on the "emergency" call. Depending on what the caller described as the situation, this needs to be followed up on - HARD.
    Agreed. The lead cop on the situation looked a bit peeved when he was told nobody there had called and the employees were fine with it.

    I will admit, my lack of experience with this kind of situation left me a little overwhelmed. I had read stories of these situations and given it some thought what to do when confronted with a police officer on my OC, but nevertheless I felt a little dazed and on "auto-pilot" with the whole thing.

    I wonder if Greaters would be willing to keep their security camera footage (I'm assuming they have a camera at the rear entrance given that's where the guy left from and the cops came in through) to corroborate who/where/when the call came in to the system.


    And thank you, everyone, for you support!
    Last edited by poetdante; 08-29-2015 at 11:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poetdante View Post
    ...I wonder if Greaters would be willing to keep their security camera footage (I'm assuming they have a camera at the rear entrance given that's where the guy left from and the cops came in through) to corroborate who/where/when the call came in to the system...
    I'd be wary of asking a private business, whose owner you don't know, for such a thing. After all, what the man told the dispatcher and what the dispatcher told the officers is definitive information.

    A videotape without audio can be interpreted any number of ways - and asking for it may create unintended consequences.
    Last edited by BB62; 08-29-2015 at 12:26 PM. Reason: reduced size of quote

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    poet, from your threads i get the impression you feel the encounter was done out of fear...i, on the other hand believe you will discern your event was actually a premeditated & malicious attack by the individual you encountered and was specifically and purposefully directed towards you, and to be honest, one which could have ended quite badly for your and yours. Thank goodness the nice LE kept their wits about them and, from your presentation, handled themselves quite professionally.

    i would pursue this with the vigor needed to include sending something to the city/county attorney's office asking for an investigation. then and only then is your event recorded...

    again, glad all ended well for you...

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    Agree, people do not approach people they are afraid of. It would be like a acrophobe standing on the ledge of a high story building.
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    Swatting is attempted murder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    To poetdante

    Nice post - glad it worked out well.

    I can tell you that if a false report was made and as a result 9 officers showed up, I would set out to make an example of the caller. We have to stop this tactic before it gets worse.

    You can't move the post to a separate thread, but I can. Let me know if you desire that and what thread title you'd like.
    I agree. And what do all people understand? Money. Sure one can call the cops and complain but one can talk to a brick wall and get equal satisfaction...it won't get you any money either.

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    I would be very interested in the 911 callers words / description.

    To me there is a big difference between a concerned citizen who, not being familiar firearms or with the laws, calls it in to clarify or just in case (and hopefully 911 dispatch would aleve their fears) OR someone who knowingly escalates the situation in the 911 call making a non-situation into more than it is.

    The first is just ignorance / fear, the second is Swatting.

    Please FOIA (and share), if dispatch or the police explained the firearm carry laws to the guy then ignorance cannot be claimed if he does it again. A second time by the guy could / should invite a lawsuit / arrest.
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    Sounds like everything went just as it should by all parties except the guy that called it in. It always confuses me when people act like you have stricken fear into them but they weren't too afraid to confront you about carrying. I don't get the logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    ......Now, if the cops would just go back to the office and have a few words with the dispatcher.......

    Charles
    I'm just wondering what words should be had with dispatch. If a person calls in a man with a gun, and it was dispatched as a man with a gun, what did dispatch do wrong? IF they dispatcher gave false information then by all means have at it. Unfortunately though, the dispatcher can only work with the information they are given.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy1094 View Post
    snipp... Unfortunately though, the dispatcher can only work with the information they are given.
    like the new age adage...'garbage in...'

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by willy1094 View Post
    Sounds like everything went just as it should by all parties except the guy that called it in. It always confuses me when people act like you have stricken fear into them but they weren't too afraid to confront you about carrying. I don't get the logic.



    I'm just wondering what words should be had with dispatch. If a person calls in a man with a gun, and it was dispatched as a man with a gun, what did dispatch do wrong? IF they dispatcher gave false information then by all means have at it. Unfortunately though, the dispatcher can only work with the information they are given.
    I would hope dispatchers ask if the MWAG was brandishing or threatening and if not, informing the caller that OC is legal before sending a unit. People call for the dumbest reasons sometimes and I don't think they have the manpower (and certainly not the obligation) to respond to every legal activity that might upset someone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dario View Post
    I would hope dispatchers ask if the MWAG was brandishing or threatening and if not, informing the caller that OC is legal before sending a unit. People call for the dumbest reasons sometimes and I don't think they have the manpower (and certainly not the obligation) to respond to every legal activity that might upset someone.
    Some departments send a unit if the caller requests one PERIOD as a matter of policy (PD's not Dispatch's). It's not in the dispatcher's hands. If the dispatcher did not ask the above questions, that would be grounds to have a talk with said dispatcher. Those SHOULD be/ARE standard questions.
    Last edited by willy1094; 08-29-2015 at 08:54 PM.

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    Also keep in mind that callers have been known to stretch the truth or all out lie to fit the way the feel about a situation. This can be from ignorance, fear/panic, or 100% deceit. A dispatcher can have a feeling that the person is lying but can really only use further questioning to poke holes at lies. If the person holds to their story, dispatcher's have VERY little room for opinion.

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