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Thread: Laser pointers & sights

  1. #1
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Laser pointers & sights

    After reading about a Henrico man arrested for pointing a laser at a police aircraft, I decided to look into the use of lasers further.
    http://www.nbc12.com/story/29917756/...t-police-plane

    Found two Virginia statutes:

    § 5.1-22. Interference with operation of aircraft; penalties; venue.
    http://law.justia.com/codes/virginia...section-5.1-22

    and

    VIRGINIA: Illegal to aim lasers at law enforcement officers
    VA Code § 18.2-57.01
    http://www.laserpointersafety.com/rules-general/uslaws/uslaws.html#VIRGINIA_Interference_with_oper

    The question that comes to mind is whether or not to use a laser sight to defuse a potential deadly attack on one's self. I haven't completely made up my mind, but am leaning strongly to that might not be the best course of action. Remembering Dan Hawes' admonition that if you have reason to draw your gun, you have reason to use it. Also when fractions of a second count, trying to convince a bg to cease by pointing a laser at him could have deadly consequences for me when actual stopping him is thus delayed.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  2. #2
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    strictly my opinion and based on my own, non-citable research:
    1. i do not use targets per se but rather paper plates for live fire practice from the holster, thus eliminating the mentality to seek and sight in a 'bull's eye' whenever i shoot.
    2. i pursue muscle memory, e.g., what feels right for my firearms sighting, verse sighting in as i am shooting to stop an attack instead of putting the projectile in a competitive and scorable pattern to be used against my peers.
    3. i do not use laser equip'd firearms as i have researched shooters can get into a fixation from practice from using laser sights during actual live fire to hesitate while they wait to sight the bull's eye or center mass on the silhouette target.
    4. my automatic stance is to pull from holster to fire position automatically and w/o hesitation and is done one handed. while the results of my training and shooting won't win me an IDPA award, but will, at least ensure someone being shot at knows i am upset at their approach and their continued advance could have dire consequences for them if they continue to approach.

    caveat: i have a laser firearm (physically the same weight and size of my full sized carry firearm) w/lasr webcam scoring computer program so i can enhance the building of my muscle memory for myself while saving $$$.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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  3. #3
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I too am a proponent of point shooting. Have gotten quite good at it, both by practicing at typical defensive combat distances with laser sights indoors and at the range w/o the sights turned off.

    I really don't even notice the absence of the little red dot.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  4. #4
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    There's more to it than the legal aspects. I learned something from watching kids play "laser tag". They know where each other is hiding when the laser goes off. You see that red beam shoot out and follow it to the source and start shooting in that direction. I've been carrying Crimson Trace Lasergrips around on a bunch of guns, both revolvers and semiautos, for years. They have some quality control issues, but have always been really good about correcting problems. But my philosophy of use, contrary to their marketing "training" DVD, is that they shouldn't be used for aiming. I use TruGlo TFO or other tritium sights for that, and of course if it's too dark to see your target, it's a bad idea to be shooting anyway. I like the TFO sights because they're good in any lighting conditions. What the laser is for, and the reason I like the momentary switch push button on/off control in the front of the grip, is that you can, after having sighted in the target with the "iron" sights, fine tune your aim with surgical precision (assuming you've gone to the trouble of aligning the laser correctly) at the very last minute. But if you go waving that red beam around, someone's going to shoot you.

    Similar principle to why I don't like the idea of chambering a round in a shotgun in order to scare away burglars. Any sensible burglar is going to hear that noise, drop, find cover, and start shooting in the direction the noise came from.

    And, as "Tuco" (played by Eli Wallach) said in "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly": "When you need to shoot, shoot, don't talk."

    Any kind of warning is a bad idea. If you're wrong about the necessity for the warning, you get (legitimately) arrested for brandishing; if you're right, someone will shoot you first on the reasonable assumption that you intend to kill them.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  5. #5
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Laser sights are designed to help you learn how to use iron sights. They should not be used to replace iron sights, and that is exactly what most people do with them, despite all their shortcomings.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Also when fractions of a second count, trying to convince a bg to cease by pointing a laser at him could have deadly consequences for me when actual stopping him is thus delayed.

    Please, anybody at all -

    Cite me one case not in the movies/on TV/in a novel where the BG was even vaguely aware of a reg/green dot on their chest/forehead.

    One, that's all I ask for. Just one.

    Lasers are good at telling you where your muzzle is pointing - if you can take the time to look over your sights to see the dot before you need to pull the trigger. I used to think they were good for folks like me that can either use the reading portion of my glasses to see the front sight but not be able to see the target, or see the target but not the sights through the distance portion.

    But my eyes are so bad that looking for that red or green dot in daylight was an exercise in "button, button, who's got the button" and trying a night to fight the urge to adjust the placement of the red or green dot to go from minute of small paper plate to minute of to-go cup lid. Good enough is good enough. Of course, YMMV.

    I'm not anywhere near as fast as Jerry Mucilik and cannot, even slow fire, put all my rounds through the hole of a CD. But that does not mean the CD should not e very afraid.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  7. #7
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Please, anybody at all -

    Cite me one case not in the movies/on TV/in a novel where the BG was even vaguely aware of a reg/green dot on their chest/forehead.

    One, that's all I ask for. Just one.

    Lasers are good at telling you where your muzzle is pointing - if you can take the time to look over your sights to see the dot before you need to pull the trigger. I used to think they were good for folks like me that can either use the reading portion of my glasses to see the front sight but not be able to see the target, or see the target but not the sights through the distance portion.

    But my eyes are so bad that looking for that red or green dot in daylight was an exercise in "button, button, who's got the button" and trying a night to fight the urge to adjust the placement of the red or green dot to go from minute of small paper plate to minute of to-go cup lid. Good enough is good enough. Of course, YMMV.

    I'm not anywhere near as fast as Jerry Mucilik and cannot, even slow fire, put all my rounds through the hole of a CD. But that does not mean the CD should not e very afraid.

    stay safe.
    The list grows daily of those that suffer the same malady; however, neither sighting method is required if one is well trained/experienced in reactive point shooting, especially at typical personal defense distances. In dry fire practice I am able to come within an inch or two of light switches or spots on the wall. At the outdoor range, I am able to chase the soda can, hopping and popping it. Started years ago with models 66 and 60 S&W wheel guns before I ever owned a 1911, so I do have some time in grade.

    On another similar note, I am still trying to out draw (speed) that azzhat in the mirror AND have the red dot center of mass.

    Now working on moving and shooting - simulated by walking, backing up or ducking while drawing.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-31-2015 at 03:51 AM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Lasers are great training aids - especially the ones that either get shoved down the barrel or go in the chamber and let off a short pulse when the hammer is dropped.

    I started out with CDs that had a crinkled-up and flattened back out piece of foil in the hole, then worked my way progressively to smaller and smaller targets. From certain known places around the house I can hit a small square (crinkled up and then flattened just enough to not be a ball of foil) 9 out of 10 times and the 10th be within an inch. It's a bit harder outside as there are few places I can set up and do draw/shoot but I'm up to about 75% on target using something similar to the old Army "Quick Kill" course with targets somewhat bigger than what I use at home. (5x is "somewhat", isn't it?)

    I need to find a place where I can do a "Quick Kill" course with the mobility scooter - that ought to be a hoot.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  9. #9
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Please, anybody at all -

    Cite me one case not in the movies/on TV/in a novel where the BG was even vaguely aware of a reg/green dot on their chest/forehead.

    One, that's all I ask for. Just one.
    Breaking Bad - when Walter White was at the Santa Fe home of his former partners that owned the software company - he was telling them to use the $2musd or so in trust for his kids. Wanted to make sure they didn't steal the money or give it to the police. The meth smurfs he was associated with were using laser pointers on the husband & wife. WW was telling them it was from the best 'hit man' money could buy, and he had already paid them - to shoot them if need be.

    http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2013/09/...ing-bad-finale

    scroll down about 2 pages and vioia...

    ...Oh - 'not' in the movies....
    'Nevermind'....
    Last edited by HPmatt; 08-31-2015 at 09:44 PM.
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
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  10. #10
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Please, anybody at all -

    Cite me one case not in the movies/on TV/in a novel where the BG was even vaguely aware of a reg/green dot on their chest/forehead.

    One, that's all I ask for. Just one.


    Lasers are good at telling you where your muzzle is pointing - if you can take the time to look over your sights to see the dot before you need to pull the trigger. I used to think they were good for folks like me that can either use the reading portion of my glasses to see the front sight but not be able to see the target, or see the target but not the sights through the distance portion.

    But my eyes are so bad that looking for that red or green dot in daylight was an exercise in "button, button, who's got the button" and trying a night to fight the urge to adjust the placement of the red or green dot to go from minute of small paper plate to minute of to-go cup lid. Good enough is good enough. Of course, YMMV.

    I'm not anywhere near as fast as Jerry Mucilik and cannot, even slow fire, put all my rounds through the hole of a CD. But that does not mean the CD should not e very afraid.

    stay safe.
    http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...in-his-tracks/
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  11. #11
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    wiping my mouth after hurling my breakfast in the corner wastecan after reading the '04 alleged bravado of the brave border patrolman defending themselves from the gaggles of the mob coming to administer appropriate justice to the gringo, especially w/comments such as, quote: ...in perfect unaccented Spanish, then English. unquote

    marco, the man asked for reality based scenarios not bovine garbage out of the movies...

    Really, marco you offer this self-serving drivel from policeone, the only epistle truly dedicated to the preservation of the nice lawman's myths and maintenance of their super egos?

    darn, mate go sit next to grape's office and think about what you have done with this post. you can endure his wrath when he returns...

    ipse

    add nauseam...if you read sarcasm...you're a better person than i
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Presuming the two related incidents to be based on fact but in told a flowery manner (a good story does deserve to be told well - just ask the folks that listen to my stories) - I'll give you a point for each of them. I'll attempt to weasel my way out by suggesting two out of how many is still statistically insignificant. That and the challenge really was supposed to be about being lased during a gunfight which, as our resident legal guru tells us, happens and lasts only as long as it takes you to draw and shoot until the threat is stopped. In those cases there is no time to settle a laser dot on someone to try to intimidate them.

    That's my story and I'm sticking wit it - even if it was not told in a flowery manner.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  13. #13
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    skid, with all the utmost respect i can possibly muster...those that listen to your stories, should have mixed drinks or beer or wine in their hands...(*~*)

    hummmm?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    skid, with all the utmost respect i can possibly muster...those that listen to your stories, should have mixed drinks or beer or wine in their hands...(*~*)

    hummmm?

    ipse
    AND a relief listener who can take over while you nap to recoup the ability to carry on
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    AND a relief listener who can take over while you nap to recoup the ability to carry on [emoji38]
    What's wrong with Skid's stories? I didn't have a problem with them. Of course he was on the side I don't hear so good! [emoji1]

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
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  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_shadow View Post
    What's wrong with Skid's stories? I didn't have a problem with them. Of course he was on the side I don't hear so good! [emoji1]

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
    Nothing wrong with Skid's stories - they are normally laser point on target, but if you can't teekle (poke n' prod) your frans, whoya gonna teekle?

    That and I hearing impaired in concert hall stereophonic surround sound.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    skid, with all the utmost respect i can possibly muster...those that listen to your stories, should have mixed drinks or beer or wine in their hands...(*~*)

    hummmm?

    ipse
    Grapeshot is the one who serves whine with his stories. I pass around the cheesy.

    By the way, did you ever hear the one about ....?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  18. #18
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Grapeshot is the one who serves whine with his stories. I pass around the cheesy.

    By the way, did you ever hear the one about ....?

    stay safe.
    Slap'g my knee vigorously...ya know skid i never grow tired of here'g ya tell that there story...

    ipse

    (finding a corner in a round room to throw up in)
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Grapeshot is the one who serves whine with his stories. I pass around the cheesy.

    By the way, did you ever hear the one about ....?

    stay safe.
    That's a whinny , not a whine. Even a stallion's ears can be sensitive

    Did you hear the one about the unhappy elephant in the room at story time?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That's a whinny,not a whine.
    What we hear from you is more like something coming from the other end.

    Whinge your way out of that!

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    What we hear from you is more like something coming from the other end.

    Whinge your way out of that!

    stay safe.
    You have your head stuck in the wrong location.

    You ear flaps should be pointed at the end with the nose.

    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-02-2015 at 05:47 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
    Centurion
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    I think a couple folks might need a Snickers. LOL

    Yeah, I know you're yanking each others chains
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