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  1. #1
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Smh...

    Those of you who know me from the Virginia forum may also know that several times a week I travel back across the river into TPR of Maryland, where I work as a Range Safety Officer for one of the largest outdoor ranges on the east coast.

    As an RSO at that range I am required to carry a sidearm, which I do openly. Last week, while working and observing the line of shooters, one of the members noticed my openly carried S&W M&P 9. He expressed surprise that I was carrying, and I explained that all of the on-duty RSOs carry, but that most of them carry concealed. He expressed the opinion that carrying concealed was probably a better idea because if a "bad guy" came onto the range intent on evil, that I would be the first person he would shoot. Sound familiar?

    I pointed out to him that within a few yards of where we were standing there were about 40-50 shooters -- including him -- armed with small and large caliber pistols, AR-15s, AK-47s, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines and 50-cal Muzzleloaded rifles.... and it was his opinion that an evil-doer would shoot ME first? I could barely restrain my laughter.

    It is kind of amazing to me that the myth of "evil guys will shoot the open carrier first" is alive and well even among those who are active in firearms.
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    chance of seeing bad guy up to no good at a shooting range: zero

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    Regular Member Liberty-or-Death's Avatar
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    +1

    I wonder whether the taste of the lies they regurgitate will ever sour their stomachs.
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    chance of seeing bad guy up to no good at a shooting range: zero
    As usual, not true or even accurate.

    The RSOs on our staff are acutely aware of who is coming and going, who belongs and who doesn't, and who is handling their firearms safely and correctly -- or not. The chances that someone intent on evil could get a shot off is there, but it would be "suicide by RSO/legitimate members." Our range has been in continuous operation since the end of WW II, and we have NEVER had a negligent or committed shooting of a member or even a suicide -- something that seems to happen at other ranges from time to time.

    Sorry if the ranges in your neck of the woods "up north" are not managed as well as ours.
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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    chance of seeing bad guy up to no good at a shooting range: zero
    Tell that to CPO Kyle.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

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    This is a question that has lived on since the inception of the human organism.

    What? Where? Why? contented by medieval societies as the men and women ingested psychedelic substances while dancing naked in circular patterns around the blaze in the forest at first sign of autumn. And even then, few in number attempted to achieve dominance by that of deceit claiming advocacy.

  7. #7
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Those of you who know me from the Virginia forum may also know that several times a week I travel back across the river into TPR of Maryland, where I work as a Range Safety Officer for one of the largest outdoor ranges on the east coast.

    As an RSO at that range I am required to carry a sidearm, which I do openly. Last week, while working and observing the line of shooters, one of the members noticed my openly carried S&W M&P 9. He expressed surprise that I was carrying, and I explained that all of the on-duty RSOs carry, but that most of them carry concealed. He expressed the opinion that carrying concealed was probably a better idea because if a "bad guy" came onto the range intent on evil, that I would be the first person he would shoot. Sound familiar?

    I pointed out to him that within a few yards of where we were standing there were about 40-50 shooters -- including him -- armed with small and large caliber pistols, AR-15s, AK-47s, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines and 50-cal Muzzleloaded rifles.... and it was his opinion that an evil-doer would shoot ME first? I could barely restrain my laughter.

    It is kind of amazing to me that the myth of "evil guys will shoot the open carrier first" is alive and well even among those who are active in firearms.
    This is where their delusion becomes so obvious it can't possibly be ignored or dismissed. He seriously expressed that you'd be targeted first for having a HOLSTERED handgun while you are surrounded by individuals with guns in hand? Please tell me he realized the absurdity...
    Advocate freedom please

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    As usual, not true or even accurate.

    The RSOs on our staff are acutely aware of who is coming and going, who belongs and who doesn't, and who is handling their firearms safely and correctly -- or not. The chances that someone intent on evil could get a shot off is there, but it would be "suicide by RSO/legitimate members." Our range has been in continuous operation since the end of WW II, and we have NEVER had a negligent or committed shooting of a member or even a suicide -- something that seems to happen at other ranges from time to time.

    Sorry if the ranges in your neck of the woods "up north" are not managed as well as ours.
    I think your post actually supports my hypothesis ... I think that any shootings would go into the bucket of "negligent" shootings. One intentional shooting in a zillion examples really does not alter the hypothesis. I've seen plenty of shooters who are negligent....almost every time I visit a range I see something that would go into that bucket. Most RSOs are helpful and point our their errors when observed.

  9. #9
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I think your post actually supports my hypothesis ... I think that any shootings would go into the bucket of "negligent" shootings. One intentional shooting in a zillion examples really does not alter the hypothesis. I've seen plenty of shooters who are negligent....almost every time I visit a range I see something that would go into that bucket. Most RSOs are helpful and point our their errors when observed.
    Nice try at diverting the discussion. The situation posited was that of an evil-doer coming onto the range with the intent of shooting as many people as possible and picking the ONLY person with a HOLSTERED sidearm to shoot first. That would not possibly be categorized as a negligent act.

    I agree that with the number of shooters we have visit the range every day, there are going to be one or more that handles their firearm negligently or in contravention of our extensive Range Rules. That's why we have NRA Certified RSOs and Chief RSOs observing the line not only while it's hot, but also during regularly scheduled ceasefires. Any member who fails to handle a firearm correctly is counseled (if a trivial violation) or sent off the range (for a serious violation).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mo View Post
    This is a question that has lived on since the inception of the human organism.

    What? Where? Why? contented by medieval societies as the men and women ingested psychedelic substances while dancing naked in circular patterns around the blaze in the forest at first sign of autumn. And even then, few in number attempted to achieve dominance by that of deceit claiming advocacy.
    hey Grape can we do something about this? it really provides no insight into the issue, and is spouted nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Nice try at diverting the discussion. The situation posited was that of an evil-doer coming onto the range with the intent of shooting as many people as possible and picking the ONLY person with a HOLSTERED sidearm to shoot first. That would not possibly be categorized as a negligent act.

    I agree that with the number of shooters we have visit the range every day, there are going to be one or more that handles their firearm negligently or in contravention of our extensive Range Rules. That's why we have NRA Certified RSOs and Chief RSOs observing the line not only while it's hot, but also during regularly scheduled ceasefires. Any member who fails to handle a firearm correctly is counseled (if a trivial violation) or sent off the range (for a serious violation).
    Seems like you are picking a fight with davidmcbeth just to pick a fight. I don't see where he disagreed with you, rather he simply pointed out that bad guys with ill intent rarely, if ever, go to public gun ranges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dario View Post
    Seems like you are picking a fight with davidmcbeth just to pick a fight. I don't see where he disagreed with you, rather he simply pointed out that bad guys with ill intent rarely, if ever, go to public gun ranges.
    Thanks Dario, you are very astute.

    Really, I'm more concerned with aliens abducting me at a range than a crazy person with evil intent rushing in and start shooting people. So the concern is basically zero. Always on the look out for those negligent folks in any event...covers all 3 scenarios. People watch too much TV.

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    Regular Member Liberty-or-Death's Avatar
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    Dario, if you know McBeth, you'd understand.
    Be active.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dario View Post
    Seems like you are picking a fight with davidmcbeth just to pick a fight. I don't see where he disagreed with you, rather he simply pointed out that bad guys with ill intent rarely, if ever, go to public gun ranges.
    No one is picking a fight with Mr. McBeth. We each earn our reputations the hard way - we are known by the words and attitudes we express. We create a history of posts by which others will judge us - no one is unique to that regard.

    There are those among us that will misquote intentionally, dwell on non-essential elements, go completely off topic, and ignore forum rules.

    Am i picking on anyone? Nope, I'm speaking in generalities, but if the shoe fits..........
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    Regular Member Liberty-or-Death's Avatar
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    I try those shoes on for size from time to time. Must by my alter ego coming through, Rebel Without a Clue.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberty-or-Death View Post
    I try those shoes on for size from time to time. Must by my alter ego coming through, Rebel Without a Clue.
    Rebel With A Cause - can be a badge of honor.

    Rebel is a noun, verb, or adjective.

    A rebel with a purpose (acceptable forum style): a person who refuses allegiance to or resists or rises in arms against the government or leaders of his country/state/municipality.
    Note: Not a revolutionary thought.

    Modified/adapted from: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rebel
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No one is picking a fight with Mr. McBeth. We each earn our reputations the hard way - we are known by the words and attitudes we express. We create a history of posts by which others will judge us - no one is unique to that regard.

    There are those among us that will misquote intentionally, dwell on non-essential elements, go completely off topic, and ignore forum rules.

    Am i picking on anyone? Nope, I'm speaking in generalities, but if the shoe fits..........
    that because you harass in private message and serve infractions. you wont do that in the open forum. Not just chris kyle, a mother shot her kids at a indoor range a few years back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    that because you harass in private message and serve infractions. you wont do that in the open forum. Not just chris kyle, a mother shot her kids at a indoor range a few years back.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vPnMbLr5nc

    Not for the squeamish. But really not relevant IMO, a family related incident; and one incident does not make a logical leap to any generalizations.

    And I have been to completely unsupervised ranges too ... usually they're free. Have your head on a swivel when you go to one. eh, what? You want to live forever?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    chance of seeing bad guy up to no good at a shooting range: zero
    you said zero, yet we have dug up 2 instances where people were murdered at a gun range. the point is, it HAS happened, and you are wrong.

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    LOL A match made in heaven, McBeth and his G21 foil. En garde, Touche!
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No one is picking a fight with Mr. McBeth. We each earn our reputations the hard way - we are known by the words and attitudes we express. We create a history of posts by which others will judge us - no one is unique to that regard.

    There are those among us that will misquote intentionally, dwell on non-essential elements, go completely off topic, and ignore forum rules.

    Am i picking on anyone? Nope, I'm speaking in generalities, but if the shoe fits..........
    As folks know, I'm happy to point to facts and go from the facts, stated and implied, and point out stuff. That's the purpose of these types of forums ... to discuss out different viewpoints. But with some posters they take it personal. Like they even know the other person.

    But all in all, we all try to advance OC and our natural rights and knowledge of these subject matters. Laws change all the time (indeed they are not "laws" at all ~ one cannot break a true law 'cause if you can, its not a law at all). When I was a ffl, I'd sell handguns to chicago folks all the time...when the various gov't agencies' LEOs came over and told me that I may have been breaking the law and tried to get me to stop...I just showed them the door. Had many interactions with gov't agents over many things related to my ffl business. Had ATF, FBI, Treasury agents, and various other agency agents contact me over my time as a ffl; they discovered a person who supported the RKBA much to their displeasure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    that because you harass in private message and serve infractions. you wont do that in the open forum. Not just chris kyle, a mother shot her kids at a indoor range a few years back.
    Oh my god, it's back. Get the harpoons ready, lads!

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No one is picking a fight with Mr. McBeth. We each earn our reputations the hard way - we are known by the words and attitudes we express. We create a history of posts by which others will judge us - no one is unique to that regard.

    There are those among us that will misquote intentionally, dwell on non-essential elements, go completely off topic, and ignore forum rules.

    Am i picking on anyone? Nope, I'm speaking in generalities, but if the shoe fits..........
    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    that because you harass in private message and serve infractions. you wont do that in the open forum. Not just chris kyle, a mother shot her kids at a indoor range a few years back.
    Make no mistake - while we do not issue infractions in open forum, we can and do correct poor conduct......such as being accused of harassment.

    Reject moderation and insult members of the administration at your peril, sir.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-06-2015 at 09:11 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    you said zero, yet we have dug up 2 instances where people were murdered at a gun range. the point is, it HAS happened, and you are wrong.
    2 instances of, what, min. of 2*10^6 instances IS zero.

    Chance = probability

    Zero is a number. Only one significant figure.

    If ya want to get into the significance of what numbers mean ... seek out further info; I can assure you, my premise has not been invalidated in this thread. Me smart in mathy things.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 09-07-2015 at 12:48 AM.

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Thread drift to the extreme and challanging Moderation = locked.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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