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Thread: Refused ID at Court house today to check weapon.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Refused ID at Court house today to check weapon.

    Went to be support for a friend suffering from petty tyrants at Bellingham municipal courthouse. Asked to check weapon, at time of check in I put my wallet and knife and keys in with the gun. The security guy was pro gun.

    He then said I should hold onto wallet because he needed to hold onto ID.

    I said I had cleared this a few years ago (before city hired private security) and I don't need ID and I keep the key according to state law.

    He said all he knows is what he was told. And that he would have to clear this with the city. I had to grab all my belongings and wait outside. I fully expected the city to have changed its policy.

    He came back and said I was good to go, gave me the key I put myself in and went to watch the jester show called a justice system.

    I thanked him for his professionalism both at that time and when I came back down to gather my belongings at the end of court.

    My feelings is the city is having a policy to ask, but if pushed will follow the law.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Went to be support for a friend suffering from petty tyrants at Bellingham municipal courthouse. Asked to check weapon, at time of check in I put my wallet and knife and keys in with the gun. The security guy was pro gun.

    He then said I should hold onto wallet because he needed to hold onto ID.

    I said I had cleared this a few years ago (before city hired private security) and I don't need ID and I keep the key according to state law.

    He said all he knows is what he was told. And that he would have to clear this with the city. I had to grab all my belongings and wait outside. I fully expected the city to have changed its policy.

    He came back and said I was good to go, gave me the key I put myself in and went to watch the jester show called a justice system.

    I thanked him for his professionalism both at that time and when I came back down to gather my belongings at the end of court.

    My feelings is the city is having a policy to ask, but if pushed will follow the law.
    I bet they just hate verbs.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

  3. #3
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    I bet they just hate verbs.
    +1

    This guy was polite and professional but still would have just "followed orders".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    SNIP "... and I don't need ID and I keep the key according to state law."
    Warms the heart and brings a tear to my eye. <sniff>

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    He said all he knows is what he was told.

    Well, that ain't good enough. All gun owners have an "extra" responsibility to know every gun law and rule where ever they are.

    Instead his ignorance caused you delay and frustration. He should be fired.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-31-2015 at 09:39 PM. Reason: rule #19

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Our supreme court (Ohio) allows each court to set there own policy on supplying an area to secure firearms, but the courts just won't do it.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    He said all he knows is what he was told.

    Well, that ain't good enough. All gun owners have an "extra" responsibility to know every gun law and rule where ever they are.

    Instead his ignorance caused you delay and frustration. He should be fired.
    Really? When he was most likely following directives and post orders. He cleared the matter up. The OP was satisfied.

    Sometimes davidmcbeth you are like the 12th player on the field. Action not wanted and gets the team in hot water/penalized. Might be appreciated if you just sit on the bench quietly.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Our supreme court (Ohio) allows each court to set there own policy on supplying an area to secure firearms, but the courts just won't do it.
    I wonder how amused a judge would be if someone were late to court because the courthouse does not comply with state law?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    I wonder how amused a judge would be if someone were late to court because the courthouse does not comply with state law?
    From personal experience in one case only, and that being the one where the judge sent me a letter telling me to bring the items not normally allowed inside the courtroom and I showed the letter to both the security deputies and the bailiffs - the answer in that case was to recess the case all that stuff was supposed to been brought for, have the deputies and bailiffs called to stand before the bench and find out if they a) recognized his signature and b) were bucking for a minimum of a day in jail for contempt.

    Judges hear enough in the criminal and civil cases that are already docketed about government minions that have screwed up. They probably do not want to hear that "their" support staff are screwing up.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    From personal experience in one case only, and that being the one where the judge sent me a letter telling me to bring the items not normally allowed inside the courtroom and I showed the letter to both the security deputies and the bailiffs - the answer in that case was to recess the case all that stuff was supposed to been brought for, have the deputies and bailiffs called to stand before the bench and find out if they a) recognized his signature and b) were bucking for a minimum of a day in jail for contempt.

    Judges hear enough in the criminal and civil cases that are already docketed about government minions that have screwed up. They probably do not want to hear that "their" support staff are screwing up.

    stay safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    I wonder how amused a judge would be if someone were late to court because the courthouse does not comply with state law?
    I have some experience with that in Kirkland municipal court. A youtube video also, look up my username on YouTube. It is one that I had uploaded.

    Side note I was arrested at the next hearing with 10,000dollars bail for a gross misdemeanor charge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Really? When he was most likely following directives and post orders. He cleared the matter up. The OP was satisfied.

    Sometimes davidmcbeth you are like the 12th player on the field. Action not wanted and gets the team in hot water/penalized. Might be appreciated if you just sit on the bench quietly.
    And what evidence do you have that he was following directives and post orders which would conflict with the law? Seems more likely than not he was making up his own rules.

    He kicked a guy out of a public building w/o cause. He should be fired. How many HS graduates would love to have his job? Zillions.

    Not saying the guy should be hanged ... just fired. Maybe in his next job he would learn what the rules actually are instead of making them up.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Really? When he was most likely following directives and post orders. He cleared the matter up. The OP was satisfied.

    Sometimes davidmcbeth you are like the 12th player on the field. Action not wanted and gets the team in hot water/penalized. Might be appreciated if you just sit on the bench quietly.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    And what evidence do you have that he was following directives and post orders which would conflict with the law? Seems more likely than not he was making up his own rules.

    He kicked a guy out of a public building w/o cause. He should be fired. How many HS graduates would love to have his job? Zillions.

    Not saying the guy should be hanged ... just fired. Maybe in his next job he would learn what the rules actually are instead of making them up.
    Sigh......think retraining is better option.

    One strike and you're out is not normally the way. If it were, where would you be? You must have a mantle full of awards.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    I wonder how amused a judge would be if someone were late to court because the courthouse does not comply with state law?
    Don't get me started. Our court system is so broken; just for starters you would have to fire every employee, impeach every elected official and fumigate the building.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    From personal experience in one case only, and that being the one where the judge sent me a letter telling me to bring the items not normally allowed inside the courtroom and I showed the letter to both the security deputies and the bailiffs - the answer in that case was to recess the case all that stuff was supposed to been brought for, have the deputies and bailiffs called to stand before the bench and find out if they a) recognized his signature and b) were bucking for a minimum of a day in jail for contempt.

    Judges hear enough in the criminal and civil cases that are already docketed about government minions that have screwed up. They probably do not want to hear that "their" support staff are screwing up.

    stay safe.
    You are lucky, or maybe Virginia still respects that its the peoples court.

    More than likely here the judges will throw the gun owner in jail for missing the court date and not accept that the court staff as at fault.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  16. #16
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    He said all he knows is what he was told.

    Well, that ain't good enough. All gun owners have an "extra" responsibility to know every gun law and rule where ever they are.

    Instead his ignorance caused you delay and frustration. He should be fired.
    I don't believe a free people have any extra responsibilities to know the myriads of positive law laced up in black boots upon our throats.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    My feelings is the city is having a policy to ask, but if pushed will follow the law.
    This is Truth!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    I bet they just hate verbs.
    We do tend to irritate the unrighteous.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    I wonder how amused a judge would be if someone were late to court because the courthouse does not comply with state law?
    I was recently booted out of a courthouse for not following some judicial's official's made up rules.
    I had a court date and other things to file at the same courthouse...but there primarily for a criminal pre-trial conference.

    I was told by the marshalls "you'll never be back in this courthouse!". But I am prepared for such matters and called the chief justice in charge of the judicial marshalls .. zingo bingo I was back in the courthouse and courtroom 10 minutes later and the marshalls that hassled me? All went to other courtrooms. Everyone in the courtroom was amazed, except me of course.

    And the main marshall that caused me to be booted out? He's gonna be sued. Defamation, 4th amendment violation, etc. I'll win no doubt. He'll be listening to this tune soon enough:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9QEAtcz3o8

    Add another lawsuit onto the pile ...

    When I walked back in, they wanted to arrest me LOL Good times.

    http://www.pmslweb.com/the-blog/wp-c...-stalag-13.jpg
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 09-01-2015 at 01:59 PM.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Sigh......think retraining is better option.
    Why is that? They have at least the same basic training all citizens are supposed to have that is supposedly perfectly adequate to prevent violating the law. If you or I break the law and claim ignorance, people will line up (from the internet through police to prosecutors and judges) that ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

    If you or I break the law, we suffer the consequences. If you or I don't know the laws governing our professional employment, we suffer the consequences. Those consequences usually include arrest and often result in termination of employment, either due to sitting in a cell instead of being at work, or because the company regulations match the laws. Why should a security guard be different?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    One strike and you're out is not normally the way. If it were, where would you be? You must have a mantle full of awards.
    Depends on the nature of the strike. Even in baseball having your pop fly caught is different than hitting one behind the base line. Using the wrong stapler is a lot different from committing a crime.
    Last edited by Difdi; 09-01-2015 at 02:12 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    Why is that? They have at least the same basic training all citizens are supposed to have that is supposedly perfectly adequate to prevent violating the law. If you or I break the law and claim ignorance, people will line up (from the internet through police to prosecutors and judges) that ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

    If you or I break the law, we suffer the consequences. If you or I don't know the laws governing our professional employment, we suffer the consequences. Those consequences usually include arrest and often result in termination of employment, either due to sitting in a cell instead of being at work, or because the company regulations match the laws. Why should a security guard be different?



    Depends on the nature of the strike. Even in baseball having your pop fly caught is different than hitting one behind the base line. Using the wrong stapler is a lot different from committing a crime.
    My personal approach is to try to resolve such problems in an amicable manner when possible, and to give the benefit of the doubt up to a point. Have other means in my kit bag too.

    That is the way I wish to be treated by LEOs.....and in fact have a couple of times.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    My personal approach is to try to resolve such problems in an amicable manner when possible, and to give the benefit of the doubt up to a point. Have other means in my kit bag too.

    That is the way I wish to be treated by LEOs.....and in fact have a couple of times.
    I don't want to be "treated" by any LEO ... I do not commit crimes. They should leave me alone and not try to instigate anything.

    hence my filings of notices of non-consensual contacts upon state agencies.

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    It is truly awful we live in such a "gotcha" legal system where if you don't hop exactly right, spin around 10 times while patting yourself on the head counterclockwise in rhythm to the Annual Federal Register of Proposed Rules then you can be arrested or killed.

    Given the awful consequences for citizens if they breathe or look the wrong way around police or carrying a gun, I find it hard to give police a lot of leeway when they violate the law.

    Sure, police may "let you off with a warning" or not enforce the law, but that is a master-servant type of relationship where you need to rely on the "good will" of LEOs to deign to avoid arresting/killing you. Most LEOs I've met are good people, but given how much power over life, death and freedom that they have, it makes the few bad apples insufferable.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by davidmcbeth
    I don't want to be "treated" ...snip
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Please reconsider.
    Not likely. When one is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, etc, etc.

    IMO - a bloodless victory is still a win, particularly if it covers all bases well.

    Those that insist on fighting in a manner that bloodies those the fight intends to benefit brings harm to many.

    Officer: You can't carry that here.

    Me: Yes I can, but I'll leave and handle it another way.

    Me: Contact superiors in LEA and/or city council and get the matter cleared up and the officer retrained.

    My way gets the job done and benefits those that follow. Next time I see Officer Friendly, we both say, "Hi there. Nice day isn't it." He may or not mean it - I will.

    IMO - the don't come on my land or harass me foot stomping tirade may work in some instances, but is a selfish act that only benefits one person AND gets the individual classified by some as a wild eyed rogue - an image not particularly desired for accomplishing acceptance of normal everyday carry as we go about our daily lives.

    ymmv.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not likely.

    (A) foot stomping tirade may work in some instances, but is a selfish act that only benefits one person AND gets the individual classified by some as a wild eyed rogue - an image not particularly desired for accomplishing acceptance of normal everyday carry as we go about our daily lives.

    ymmv.
    This is Truth!
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    <snip>

    IMO - the don't come on my land or harass me foot stomping tirade may work in some instances, but is a selfish act that only benefits one person AND gets the individual classified by some as a wild eyed rogue - an image not particularly desired for accomplishing acceptance of normal everyday carry as we go about our daily lives.

    ymmv.
    It lays the legal groundwork to protect your rights. Hardly a "tirade"...file a notice not to approach for a consensual contact or for trespass and it eliminates, or is designed to eliminate, confrontation.

    It projects an image of "leave me alone" gov't man (something our forefathers understood was appropriate) ~ Grape's advice is to welcome contact with gov't officials whose job it is is to take away your freedoms. Nice advice there !
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 09-02-2015 at 12:47 PM.

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