Refused ID at Court house today to check weapon.

Grapeshot said:

My personal approach is to try to resolve such problems in an amicable manner when possible, and to give the benefit of the doubt up to a point. Have other means in my kit bag too.

That is the way I wish to be treated by LEOs.....and in fact have a couple of times.

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I don't want to be "treated" by any LEO ... I do not commit crimes. They should leave me alone and not try to instigate anything.

hence my filings of notices of non-consensual contacts upon state agencies.

It is truly awful we live in such a "gotcha" legal system where if you don't hop exactly right, spin around 10 times while patting yourself on the head counterclockwise in rhythm to the Annual Federal Register of Proposed Rules then you can be arrested or killed.

Given the awful consequences for citizens if they breathe or look the wrong way around police or carrying a gun, I find it hard to give police a lot of leeway when they violate the law.

Sure, police may "let you off with a warning" or not enforce the law, but that is a master-servant type of relationship where you need to rely on the "good will" of LEOs to deign to avoid arresting/killing you. Most LEOs I've met are good people, but given how much power over life, death and freedom that they have, it makes the few bad apples insufferable.

Originally Posted by davidmcbeth
I don't want to be "treated" ...snip

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gutshot said:

Please reconsider.

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Not likely. When one is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, etc, etc.

IMO - a bloodless victory is still a win, particularly if it covers all bases well.

Those that insist on fighting in a manner that bloodies those the fight intends to benefit brings harm to many.

Officer: You can't carry that here.

Me: Yes I can, but I'll leave and handle it another way.

Me: Contact superiors in LEA and/or city council and get the matter cleared up and the officer retrained.

My way gets the job done and benefits those that follow. Next time I see Officer Friendly, we both say, "Hi there. Nice day isn't it." He may or not mean it - I will.

IMO - the don't come on my land or harass me foot stomping tirade may work in some instances, but is a selfish act that only benefits one person AND gets the individual classified by some as a wild eyed rogue - an image not particularly desired for accomplishing acceptance of normal everyday carry as we go about our daily lives.

ymmv.

Grapeshot said:

Not likely.

(A) foot stomping tirade may work in some instances, but is a selfish act that only benefits one person AND gets the individual classified by some as a wild eyed rogue - an image not particularly desired for accomplishing acceptance of normal everyday carry as we go about our daily lives.

ymmv.

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This is Truth!

Grapeshot said:

<snip>

IMO - the don't come on my land or harass me foot stomping tirade may work in some instances, but is a selfish act that only benefits one person AND gets the individual classified by some as a wild eyed rogue - an image not particularly desired for accomplishing acceptance of normal everyday carry as we go about our daily lives.

ymmv.

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It lays the legal groundwork to protect your rights. Hardly a "tirade"...file a notice not to approach for a consensual contact or for trespass and it eliminates, or is designed to eliminate, confrontation.

It projects an image of "leave me alone" gov't man (something our forefathers understood was appropriate) ~ Grape's advice is to welcome contact with gov't officials whose job it is is to take away your freedoms. Nice advice there !

Every elected official and their hired enforcers all signed an oath of office. That's all of them in the legislative, executive and judicial branches of government.

That oath of office mandated each and every one of them to know the rules and play by the rules, period.

There are three ways to deal with these mutants; using a hammer, a feather or something in between.

I start with a feather and the mutants attitude will determine if I engage the hammer. Unfortunately most of these mutants only understand one response, the big hammer.

I know, because I've been there a number of times. Three quarters of the time I have to engage the hammer. Most of these mutants are not required to read, understand and play by the rules. Judges are the biggest violators. They actually believe the rules don't apply to them.

I really get amused listing to those that think they know how to handle these situations, yet they have never actually had to stand up for their rights. They have never been cuffed, stuffed and falsely charged. They have never had to deal with a judge that believes he is above the law, a cop lying on the stand and getting caught in his lies and a prosecutor who didn't turn over all the discovery then trying to use it at trial. The list goes on and on. They do it because they can. Now the shoe is on the other foot; enough said.

Our court system is broken. Our police are a reflection of their leadership. The system knows the average person can't afford competent counsel. And the so called competent counsel isn't competent at all. It's pay me money and I will work a deal that will screw you and haunt you the rest of your life. I'm lucky, I'm not one of them. I fight to the death, I fight for keeps. I win.

And yes there are good police organizations, but they are few and far between. As George Carlin says: “It's a big club and you ain't in it.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0

I'm speaking from lots of experience. I'm just say'n.

davidmcbeth said:

It lays the legal groundwork to protect your rights. Hardly a "tirade"...file a notice not to approach for a consensual contact or for trespass and it eliminates, or is designed to eliminate, confrontation.

It projects an image of "leave me alone" gov't man (something our forefathers understood was appropriate) ~ Grape's advice is to welcome contact with gov't officials whose job it is is to take away your freedoms. Nice advice there !

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Here we have much disagreement.

Your "leave me alone" demands may provide some relief for you/yourself/david, but do not extend directly to us/we/everyone else just because you filed a No Trespassing notice on the dog catcher.

Further you mischaracterize and imply I said something which I did not say.

First I did not give advice, I gave an example of what I do.

Never said that I welcomed or sought out contact, but I am frequently willing to work with the less egregious (most?) forms.

The job of government officials (mid and low level bureaucrats being discussed here) is to provide a service to us in accordance with their job description - IMHO most do a reasonable job of that, it is the exception that does not.

Then you conclude your misrepresentations with a sarcastic remark.

Worse, I do not think this was an accident - I believe it was your intention to be mocking and insulting.

I remember going to court once, parking at the parking deck, walking the distance to the courthouse, standing in line, only to find I'm not permitted to bring my cellphone in.

I was against the clock. There was no way I would be able to go to the deck and back again in time to make it to court. I decided to discretely hide my phone in the mulch around the far side of some landscaping bushes. I thought I had found the perfect place when to my surprise, digging a hole I'm the mulch to make a hiding place, I uncovered someone else's phone.

I really don't understand why we have to put up with such nonsense. Can't carry a gun to court, can't even carry a phone.

Liberty-or-Death said:

I remember going to court once, parking at the parking deck, walking the distance to the courthouse, standing in line, only to find I'm not permitted to bring my cellphone in.

I was against the clock. There was no way I would be able to go to the deck and back again in time to make it to court. I decided to discretely hide my phone in the mulch around the far side of some landscaping bushes. I thought I had found the perfect place when to my surprise, digging a hole I'm the mulch to make a hiding place, I uncovered someone else's phone.

I really don't understand why we have to put up with such nonsense. Can't carry a gun to court, can't even carry a phone.

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Dig in the mulch at our courthouse and you will get stabbed with a heroin needle. Hell, you don't have to dig they are laying allover the place.

Grapeshot said:

Really? When he was most likely following directives and post orders. .

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"Just following orders."

Tell me Grapeshot, how does that 'defense' really sound?

Dave_pro2a said:

"Just following orders."

Tell me Grapeshot, how does that 'defense' really sound?

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Believe me, I understand the problem - especially in the sense that has been applied to it. Still does not negate/invalidate the reality (probability?) that people will respond as they are trained and/or required.

He said he was a CCW guy. I didn't bother to correct him......

It seems that a lot of people think the citizen should cut the public servant some slack for not knowing and following the law. Yet, those same people won't cut the citizen any slack for not knowing and following the law.

I'm a firm believer in what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

color of law said:

It seems that a lot of people think the citizen should cut the public servant some slack for not knowing and following the law. Yet, those same people won't cut the citizen any slack for not knowing and following the law.

I'm a firm believer in what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

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What one finds in the nest will depend greatly on whether they were properly fertilized......and on where one looks, as goose eggs are seldom found in quail nests. The fox loves both because he is of singular purpose.

OTOH - I treat each circumstance individually in accordance with standards = multiple possibilities. From throw it under the bus (extremely seldom, never?) to nullification. ymmv

color of law said:

It seems that a lot of people think the citizen should cut the public servant some slack for not knowing and following the law. Yet, those same people won't cut the citizen any slack for not knowing and following the law.

I'm a firm believer in what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

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Private security. I would not have cut the city slack if they had not decided to follow the law.

color of law said:

Dig in the mulch at our courthouse and you will get stabbed with a heroin needle. Hell, you don't have to dig they are laying allover the place.

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Hey, better that they be mellow for their court appointment, rather than freaking out with DTs.