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Thread: OC Valley Metro Bus in Phoenix

  1. #1
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    OC Valley Metro Bus in Phoenix

    Hello,

    Forgive me if this question has already been asked and answered, but I couldn't find it in your archives. I know that Valley Metro buses are publicly owned, so it would make sense that they must allow open carry, but they have signs posted in their buses saying that guns are not allowed. Is this just wishful thinking on their part, or can they actually enforce that? Unfortunately, I have to ride the bus for a few months until my financial situation improves, and I would prefer to OC. Any help or law cites would be helpful and greatly appreciated.

    Thanks

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Indeed appears to be publicly owned and managed.
    http://www.valleymetro.org/board_of_directors

    "16 Valley Metro
    member agencies and the Maricopa County region"
    http://www.valleymetro.org/overview/organization

    However, as an Agency likely under the direction of the executive branch of state government they may be able to make rules outside of, beyond preemption.

    I will defer to the local experts to give us a read on this.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    OP may wish to search the forum .. I do recall carry on a bus discussed before and the prohibition was approved by the governmental powers that be. If it was an AZ bus carry subject matter is hazy.

    So the answer maybe on the forum somewhere already.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian Brad View Post
    Hello,

    Forgive me if this question has already been asked and answered, but I couldn't find it in your archives. I know that Valley Metro buses are publicly owned, so it would make sense that they must allow open carry, but they have signs posted in their buses saying that guns are not allowed. Is this just wishful thinking on their part, or can they actually enforce that? Unfortunately, I have to ride the bus for a few months until my financial situation improves, and I would prefer to OC. Any help or law cites would be helpful and greatly appreciated.

    Thanks
    Welcome to OCDO and greetings from usually () sunny, dry Tucson Libertarian Brad!

    Four things right off the bat:
    1) They are publicly owned and managed, as Grapeshot has cited. Therefore, they must allow carry unless they have a lock box or some other form of secure storage that meets the requirements of being both secure and readily accessible as you leave; no Valley Metro buses that I've seen have met that requirement. These requirements are outlined in ARS Title 13 (Criminal Code), Chapter 31 (Weapons and Explosives), section 02.01 (Storage).

    2) The law does NOT include any punishment for localities wishing to pass laws in conflict with state preemption, so these signs continue to be found in places that "conveniently" forgot to get around to maybe removing them at some point.

    3) I was unaware of any gunbuster signs still up on the buses, as I'd been under the impression that they had finally been removed to comply with state preemption, which may be found in ARS Title 13 (Criminal Code), Chapter 31 (Weapons and Explosives), section 02 (Definitions), Subsection B).

    4) Though I now live in Tucson (a little over four years now, due to attending the U of A and now a job down here), I was born and raised in the PHX area, OCing on the buses and light rail on more than one occasion. Only had one issue with the buses or light rail, and that was due to a rent-a-cop not knowing the law. To their credit, it was swiftly dealt with by his more knowledeable supervisor.

    Hope this helps.
    Here are the applicable statutes:

    Quote Originally Posted by ARS 13-3102
    A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:
    1. Carrying a deadly weapon except a pocket knife concealed on his person or within his immediate control in or on a means of transportation:
    (a) In the furtherance of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706, a violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03 or any other felony offense; or
    (b) When contacted by a law enforcement officer and failing to accurately answer the officer if the officer asks whether the person is carrying a concealed deadly weapon; or
    2. Carrying a deadly weapon except a pocket knife concealed on his person or concealed within his immediate control in or on a means of transportation if the person is under twenty-one years of age; or
    3. Manufacturing, possessing, transporting, selling or transferring a prohibited weapon, except that if the violation involves dry ice, a person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly possessing the dry ice with the intent to cause injury to or death of another person or to cause damage to the property of another person; or
    4. Possessing a deadly weapon or prohibited weapon if such person is a prohibited possessor; or
    5. Selling or transferring a deadly weapon to a prohibited possessor; or
    6. Defacing a deadly weapon; or
    7. Possessing a defaced deadly weapon knowing the deadly weapon was defaced; or
    8. Using or possessing a deadly weapon during the commission of any felony offense included in chapter 34 of this title; or
    9. Discharging a firearm at an occupied structure in order to assist, promote or further the interests of a criminal street gang, a criminal syndicate or a racketeering enterprise; or
    10. Unless specifically authorized by law, entering any public establishment or attending any public event and carrying a deadly weapon on his person after a reasonable request by the operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event or the sponsor's agent to remove his weapon and place it in the custody of the operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event for temporary and secure storage of the weapon pursuant to section 13-3102.01;

    ...SNIPPED FOR (SOME) BREVITY...

    B. Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to:
    1. A person in his dwelling, on his business premises or on real property owned or leased by that person or that person's parent, grandparent or legal guardian.
    2. A member of the sheriff's volunteer posse or reserve organization who has received and passed firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board and who is authorized by the sheriff to carry a concealed weapon pursuant to section 11-441.
    3. A firearm that is carried in:
    (a) A manner where any portion of the firearm or holster in which the firearm is carried is visible.
    (b) A holster that is wholly or partially visible.

    (c) A scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons that is wholly or partially visible.
    (d) Luggage.
    (e) A case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.
    Link to ARS 13-3102 (Trust, but verify):*http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...13&DocType=ARS


    Quote Originally Posted by ARS 13-3102.01
    13-3102.01. Storage of deadly weapons; definitions
    A. If an operator of a public establishment or a sponsor of a public event requests that a person carrying a deadly weapon remove the weapon, the operator or sponsor shall provide temporary and secure storage. The storage shall be readily accessible on entry into the establishment or event and allow for the immediate retrieval of the weapon on exit from the establishment or event.
    B. This section does not apply to the licensed premises of any public establishment or public event with a license issued pursuant to title 4.
    C. The operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event or the employee of the operator or sponsor or the agent of the sponsor, including a public entity or public employee, is not liable for acts or omissions pursuant to this section unless the operator, sponsor, employee or agent intended to cause injury or was grossly negligent.
    D. For the purposes of this section, "public establishment" and "public event" have the same meanings prescribed in section 13-3102.
    Some places have been caught putting up a sign referencing the Title 4 (Liquor Laws) exception to carry. I believe one fun example was an office supply store. A prominent member of the AZ subforum suggested we should visit the place and ask to be promptly directed to their bar area.

    Link to 13-3102.01 (Trust, but verify):*http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...13&DocType=ARS


    You could print the applicable sections out and carry them around with you to be armed with the facts, just in case you run into someone who is ignorant of the law. I've done so for over a year now, even though I've never had to "draw" my copy of the ARS.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

  5. #5
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    Therefore, they must allow carry unless they have a lock box or some other form of secure storage that meets the requirements of being both secure and readily accessible as you leave
    There is nothing in the law that says they must allow firearms if they don't have storage. They law says they must provide it but if they flaunt the law there is no penalty and they can still ban firearms. Fortunately "they" don't all realize that.

    Fred

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    Thank you to everyone who responded. I understand that Valley Metro is supposed to allow us to OC, but has anyone tried to do this and told by the bus driver to get off?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    There is nothing in the law that says they must allow firearms if they don't have storage. They law says they must provide it but if they flaunt the law there is no penalty and they can still ban firearms. Fortunately "they" don't all realize that.

    Fred
    Correct. I should have said "they shouldn't be able to prohibit carry".

    Quote Originally Posted by ca2az96 View Post
    Thank you to everyone who responded. I understand that Valley Metro is supposed to allow us to OC, but has anyone tried to do this and told by the bus driver to get off?
    Nothing here. The one time I had trouble with Valley Metro was during the Superbowl festivities in PHX. The one rent-a-cop tried to tell me I couldn't board the lightrail (he didn't physically bar me or anything), so I explained the law to him. He didn't believe me, seeing as he asked his supervisor (who was a few steps off to the side and behind him). The supervisor said it was ok, and that was it.

    Other than that one time, I've had no trouble, and I used the buses and light rail quite often.

    I spend most of my time down here in Tucson, but I still visit the PHX area on occasion. For what it's worth, my brother (he lives and OCs in the PHX area; I've been trying to convince him to join OCDO) hasn't mentioned being hassled by any of the bus drivers (he OCs a full-size 1911 as well).
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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