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Thread: The Cult of Lincoln

  1. #1
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    The Cult of Lincoln

    As a young boy I was fascinated and thought Lincoln was the greatest president, after all he freed the slaves what a great man!

    Also we were taught how evil the south was the war was all their fault etc.

    In fifth grade we moved to a new school in Washington, as a newcomer I was outcast the other outcast was a black kid so we hung out. A few months later a kid from Georgia moved up being new and having this strange accent he was the other outcast. The three of us became friends while at school. One day some other kids were picking on Andy because he was black. I shamefully did nothing to interfere fearing they would move to pick on me next. This southern kid from Georgia did not let it continue, and jumped in to help our friend enduring racial slurs and actually getting into a physical alteration with the other kids. I swore to myself that day I would never stand by and let something like that happen again, I have kept my word to myself never wanting to feel that sense of shame again.

    This opened my eyes though, and I started asking the kid from Georgia about the south and about the war, he told me things I never learned and so I started researching it and to my horror Lincoln was not the person I was mislead to believe. That we were not supposed to be one nation, he freed no blacks, he was a tyrant and a racist bigot.

    I also knew that I was never going to be a democrat, my mother was a welfare mom and I saw the damage that philosophy and that system did to us as children. So I assumed I sided with the republican/conservative side of things.

    Years ago I realized I did not. I considered myself a constitutionalist but could see how the republicans mouthed words about the constitution yet failed to uphold it on so many levels. Reminding me of the scripture about "faith without works is dead."

    After years of research I realized like other tyrannies they the state need their "champions" their "cult of personality".

    Both democrats and republicans revere Lincoln who singlehandedly did the most to destroy constitutionally federated government and to centralize control and power. A revolution founded upon the right of secession was destroyed by a war to end that right.

    The republican party was the original party of big government, high tariffs, corporate subsidies, centralized control, keeping America free for "free white labor" (the reason they opposed slavery at all, it competed with white labor, not the altruistic propaganda indoctrinated into young children), big military. Lincoln was a corporate lawyer lobbyist, who was given his own car for railroad use.

    The democrats, not just those of the south, contrary to some belief there were anti slave, abolitionist democrats and classical liberals in the north. Were the ones for less government, more liberty, less tariffs, less interference, and more constitutional control. The Republicans were the progressives, another hero liked by them is Roosevelt (Teddy), who also did a lot of damage to liberty and increased the powers of government. Wilson run against him opposing him, opposing war, opposing big government spending, he then turned around and acted just like him. Since then the Democrats and the Republicans have been virtually the same. This is easy for anyone who steps outside the fake left right paradigm to see, but one has to step outside that paradigm.

    So despite the ability to readily research Lincoln and to present facts about him, the cult followers like all good cult followers, will condemn any anti Lincoln statements as heretical against this god of the state.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 09-06-2015 at 11:36 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  2. #2
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Removed because while my post supported the OP it had the potential of hijacking the thread.....
    Last edited by Bikenut; 09-06-2015 at 12:52 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Many love him or hate him. Some see him as being right for the time to save/preserve the union, which I believe was his mission/goal.

    That he broke rules, ignored laws, and created powers where there had been none is amply in evidence.

    Whatever your feelings, the union was preserved. Might something else have been effective, worked. We'll never know.

    I anticipate this thread will cleave members into opposing groups with little good, outcome/results.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    The Union was preserved at a cost of a half-million brothers dead, the union was not. The seceding states were forced at gun and bayonet point to kneel and pay tribute to the Union.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    however grape, et al., the member's presenting dichotomies shall serve as an interesting overview and powerful personality insight!!

    getting a huge bag of BSA & Cub Scout Carmel Corn i paid almost $20 for to enjoy this special discussion...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    A typical politician sending other parents kids to die when he sends his to be a staffer.

    And for what? To get his head on the lowest denomination coin, the penny.

    Lucky he did not want his pic on a nickle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    SNIP I anticipate this thread will cleave members into opposing groups with little good, outcome/results.
    Oh, yeah. 'Cause facts presented in context always result in little good, outcome/results.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot
    SNIP I anticipate this thread will cleave members into opposing groups with little good, outcome/results.
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, yeah. 'Cause facts presented in context always result in little good, outcome/results.
    Who said "always?" Mine reply was plainly a generalized prediction.

    The point being, for those that cannot or wont see it, is that we do not need to further divide ourselves into separate camps.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  9. #9
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    I think we all know what is about to happen.

    solus, lemme get a solo cup full of what you're munching on...
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    I think we all know what is about to happen.

    solus, lemme get a solo cup full of what you're munching on...
    Discussion of Lincoln, Zombie Hunter?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZp7eBStN1U

  11. #11
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    I think we all know what is about to happen.

    solus, lemme get a solo cup full of what you're munching on...
    oh h3ll no...you go spend your own 20$ for the medium sized bag of BSA caramel popcorn...

    i like ya boi but i didn't take ya to raise!!!

    ipse

    just awaiting for that to be brought up...kudos david...
    Last edited by solus; 09-06-2015 at 03:59 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    <snip>

    just awaiting for that to be brought up...kudos david...
    I'm very good for very little ...

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I'm very good for very little ...
    If anyone else said that about you, it would be a violation of forum rules.

    OTOH - Should not we know ourselves and our motives better than others?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The Union was preserved at a cost of a half-million brothers dead, the union was not. The seceding states were forced at gun and bayonet point to kneel and pay tribute to the Union.
    An unforgivable cost. I can't help but believe similar cohesion could have been maintained and slow change brought about without the war.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  15. #15
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Many love him or hate him. Some see him as being right for the time to save/preserve the union, which I believe was his mission/goal.

    That he broke rules, ignored laws, and created powers where there had been none is amply in evidence.

    Whatever your feelings, the union was preserved. Might something else have been effective, worked. We'll never know.

    I anticipate this thread will cleave members into opposing groups with little good, outcome/results.
    Your post has that "ends justify the means" taste to it. Just curious. Do you feel that way?
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    And now relating to Ukraine and annexation of areas of that country politicians say "they wanted to be part of Russia, so that's their right".... what a turn around in 150 yrs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    If anyone else said that about you, it would be a violation of forum rules.

    OTOH - Should not we know ourselves and our motives better than others?
    Its just that what I post here is what/something I'm good at ...

    Just remember: I'm always right ... and when I'm not, I'm just mistaken.

  18. #18
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Removed because while my post supported the OP it had the potential of hijacking the thread.....
    I'd love to hear what you have to say.

    I don't mind thread drift, that is after all how we converse in real life.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  19. #19
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Many love him or hate him. Some see him as being right for the time to save/preserve the union, which I believe was his mission/goal.

    That he broke rules, ignored laws, and created powers where there had been none is amply in evidence.

    Whatever your feelings, the union was preserved. Might something else have been effective, worked. We'll never know.

    I anticipate this thread will cleave members into opposing groups with little good, outcome/results.
    Interesting, if I may since I started the post.

    The intention was to show my personal feelings, and also shed light that all wasn't what state propaganda is.

    I am not afraid of opposing opinions, I have studied Lincoln I am firm in my opinion and his unconstitutionality. I also don't think we all need to be on the same camp on every topic.

    I beg to differ with you that the Union was preserved. The union was destroyed an empire was created.

    We of course are doomed to repeat history if we do not learn from it, part of that is breaking free from the empire approved history, isn't it funny that through out all history "the good guys" always won?

    I hope some have their eyes open as I had mine, I share my knowledge out of love of society.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    http://threeway.blogspot.com/2010/02...idents-by.html

    A presidential history quiz...

    What American President launched a massive invasion of another country that posed no threat, and without a declaration of war?


    What President raised a huge army at his own will without the approval of Congress?


    What President started a war of choice in violation of every principle of Christian just war teaching?


    What President said that he had to violate the Constitution in order to save it?


    What President declared the elected legislatures of thirteen States to be "combinations" of criminals that he had to suppress?


    What President said he was indifferent to slavery but would use any force necessary to collect taxes?


    What President sent combat troops from the battlefield to bombard and occupy New York City?


    What President sent the Army to arrest in the middle of the night thousands of private citizens for expressing their opinions? And held them incommunicado in military prisons with total denial of due process of law? And had his soldiers destroy newspaper plants?


    What President was the first ruler in the civilized world to make medicine a contraband of war?


    What President signed for his cronies special licenses to purchase valuable cotton from an enemy country even though he had forbidden such trade and punished other people for the same practice?


    What President refused medical care and food to his own soldiers held by the enemy country?


    What President presided over the bombardment and house-by-house destruction of cities and towns that were undefended and not military targets?


    What President’s forces deliberately targeted women and children and destroyed their housing, food supply, and private belongings?


    What President’s occupying forces engaged in imprisonment, torture, and execution of civilians and seizing them as hostages?


    Under what President did the Army have the largest number of criminals, mercenaries, and foreigners?


    Who was the first American President to plot the assassination of an opposing head of state?


    Who had the least affiliation with Christianity of any American President and blamed God for starting the war over which he presided?


    What President voted for and praised a law which forbade black people from settling in his State?



    What President said that all black people should be expelled from the United States because they could never be full-fledged citizens?


    What President was the first to force citizens to accept as legal money pieces of paper unbacked by gold or silver?


    Who was the first President to institute an income tax?


    Who was the first President to pile up a national debt too vast to be paid off in a generation?


    Who is considered almost universally as the greatest American President, indeed as the greatest American of all times and as a world hero of democracy?


    What predecessor is President Obama most often compared to?

    This is a take-home quiz. Please grade yourself.

    December 21, 2009
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  21. #21
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I would suggest to allay the moderators concerns, that personal attacks on people and their personal politics be left out of the discussion.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  22. #22
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    You forgot what president ordered mass executions of native Americans.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Your post has that "ends justify the means" taste to it. Just curious. Do you feel that way?
    I have to side step the issue. I neither like or justify the means - it is what it is.

    I am glad that we are today one country, rather than two.......and you?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
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    This is just to pass along ammunition to others who might find it useful.

    Which president destroyed the legitimacy of the American Revolution? (Lincoln, of course.)

    How? Here's how.

    Lincoln denied and refused states' rights to secede from the union.

    The American Revolution was a revolution in a manner of speaking. To call it a revolution is just a turn of phrase. The colonial armies did not sail to England and overthrow the king.
    It was actually a secession. The colonies seceded from Britain.

    Separately, I've long wondered about a certain contradiction. The constitution does not prohibit secession. The Tenth Amendment expressly states that powers not delegated to the fedgov, nor prohibited to the states are reserved to the states. Meaning, secession was and still is a constitutional state power. Re-wind a bit to the Articles of Confederation. What was the full title of the agreement between the states? Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. So, according to Lincoln's logic, a perpetual confederation can be legitimately dissolved, but a non-perpetual union cannot be dissolved.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  25. #25
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I have to side step the issue. I neither like or justify the means - it is what it is.

    I am glad that we are today one country, rather than two.......and you?
    I would have had no problem with being two separate countries. No different than Canada is a separate North American country. I am surprised Lincoln stopped at just the south. If not for the war, and the war on Native Americans he probably would have tried to force Canada, and Mexico into the Union.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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