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Thread: SGK Gun show rules

  1. #1
    Regular Member Liberty-or-Death's Avatar
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    SGK Gun show rules

    I saw this post on FB yesterday morning. I'm posting it, not to discuss it per se, but the cause of it.
    At the [Norfolk] Scope working a gun show for work. A undercover State Trooper commanded me to stand still at my booth and removed my firearm from the back of my waist. And then demanded to know why my weapon was loaded. It had no ammunition but had an empty magazine. I know that loaded weapons are not allowed in the Scope, but was he allowed to detain me and take my weapon to check its condition?"
    A discussion ensued of course with what the poster did wrong and what the LEO did wrong.
    My question here, and the point of my post, is this: "What did the Southeastern Guns & Knives do wrong?" I will start by laying out their stance:
    Regulations

    We employ firearms-certified security officers for each of our shows to conduct weapon checks of patrons prior to entrance to the show. No loaded firearms are permitted into the show, with the exceptions of active duty law enforcement officers and the security force provided by the promoter. Each firearm that enters the show must be rendered inoperable by the security officer's placement of a locking zip tie. This zip tie must remain tied on the firearm until you exit the show. Employees of Southeastern Guns & Knives, Ltd. reserve the right to circulate throughout the show to ensure all guns remain tied.


    Vendor Rules and Information

    3. No loaded weapons are permitted in the show. This rule applies to both dealers and the public with concealed weapon permits. The only exceptions to this rule are the security force provided by the promoter and active duty law enforcement. Vendors must check every firearm on their table and secure it with a gun tie so it is unable to be fired before the show opens each day. Any tie that is temporarily removed must be replaced. Personal firarms must be unloaded and loaded OUTSIDE the building where the gun show is being held. An accidental discharge will result in immediate removal and expulsion from all future SGK Shows.
    12. No loaded firearms are permitted in the show. You must check every firearm on your table and your person and secure it with a gun tie before the show opens each day. Although you may have a concealed carry permit, SGK does not permit loaded firearms into the show unless by police officer or security hired by the promoter.
    Source: http://www.guns-knives.com/regulations.php
    From this, their regulations and rules are somewhat confusing and should be rewritten. First and foremost, they should clearly state their requirement that all guns (except security and LEO) must be remain visibly rendered inoperable via locking zip tie. What say you?
    Last edited by Liberty-or-Death; 09-06-2015 at 03:05 PM.
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  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Don't they 1) require that all firearms be zip-tied. and 2) post that no magazines (full or empty) are allowed?

    To me "zip-tied" means the locking mechanism is used, not just running the plastic down the barrel.

    But if the violation was of the promoter's rules someone representing the promoter should have made the confrontation. (They could have brought a cop along "just in case" or to assure that you left immediately after being told to leave. (Although usually promoters try to get identifying information (name, address, picture, anything else they can pry out of you) so they can send a formal trespass notice and put you in their 'not allowed" book.)

    A cop unilaterally enforcing a promoter's rule exceeds their authority. Sadly, telling that to them and suggesting they go pound sand does not have a high expectation of working out in your favor.

    stay safe.
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    Ok....

    What crime did you commit or were suspected of committing?

    None that I can see.

    Even if you had a loaded gun it appears as if they would just ask you to leave (hence, no trespass).

    So the question of if a cop can reasonably have suspicion that your gun is loaded is moot; but, in the alternative, it does not.

    Now you going to sue him? I would. All that they could have done is to say "leave". And this cop was not on duty? ~ sue both the venue and cop in his personal capacity (immunity pierced easy enough) (was working security? find out ~ many PDs require cops to ask permission to do outside work) and the town if he was wearing his uniform.

    Cannot file a case pro se? Seek legal counsel or learn.

    I think its a slam dunk cash in your pocket case. IANAL

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Ok....

    What crime did you commit or were suspected of committing?

    None that I can see.

    Even if you had a loaded gun it appears as if they would just ask you to leave (hence, no trespass).
    The venue is posted - bright yellow plastic boards with giant red block letters - against magazines. Having one inside (that you did not buy from a vendor at the show) would in fact be a trespass.

    So the question of if a cop can reasonably have suspicion that your gun is loaded is moot; but, in the alternative, it does not.

    Now you going to sue him? I would. All that they could have done is to say "leave".
    They could also say "and never come back again" - which is their usual procedure.

    And this cop was not on duty?
    He was on duty. He, the other city cops, State Police, ATF agents, and employees (with arrest powers) of several other alphabet agencies.

    ~ sue both the venue and cop in his personal capacity (immunity pierced easy enough) (was working security? find out ~ many PDs require cops to ask permission to do outside work) and the town if he was wearing his uniform.
    My, how you insist on things being your way, even when they are not. Why would a promoter bother to hire security during show hours when you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting some law enforcement person?

    Cannot file a case pro se? Seek legal counsel or learn.

    I think its a slam dunk cash in your pocket case. IANAL
    I am proscribed from posting what I think. You might give some consideration to not being a lawyer in jurisdictions where you are unfamiliar with both statute and case law.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member 4xwcc24's Avatar
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    Just FYI, this weekends gun show at Norfolk Scope is promoted by C and E, not SGK. (If that matters) I attended, magazine was empty, firearm zip tied and holstered, walked around, bought a new firearm and left. No problems... Did notice numerous signs that stated "No loaded firearms in building", when you walked into the place you had to get zip tied PRIOR to paying admission...

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    You can buy a shiny new pistol, magazines, and ammo, but you can't carry your own loaded weapon inside. Seems legit.
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    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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    Regular Member Liberty-or-Death's Avatar
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    Thanks 4xwcc24. That makes a difference.
    Unless I'm missing something, their website http://www.cegunshows.com/norfolk--va.html posts this as their only rule. DO NOT BRING LOADED GUNS IN THE BUILDING
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post



    I am proscribed from posting what I think. You might give some consideration to not being a lawyer in jurisdictions where you are unfamiliar with both statute and case law.

    stay safe.
    Appear, after re-reading, that OP maybe just relaying info....

    4th amendment applies throughout USA. Unless this was in another country.

    Statue, case law etc...basic tenant of 4th: no search w/o warrant. Burden to show search was valid is upon the person searching, not upon the person who got searched. You offer ZERO in your post to support the search was valid. Lawsuit still good to go.

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    Regular Member 4xwcc24's Avatar
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    Liberty - correct, all I found also...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberty-or-Death View Post
    Thanks 4xwcc24. That makes a difference.
    Unless I'm missing something, their website http://www.cegunshows.com/norfolk--va.html posts this as their only rule. DO NOT BRING LOADED GUNS IN THE BUILDING
    He followed that rule. Consider NY "safe act"..where people can have 13 rd mags but can only load to 7 rds. So carrying a 13rd mag gives PC to search to see if 8-13 rds are there? No it does not.

    Whats the difference between chking for 7 rds or checking for zero. Nothing.

    Zip tie? Big deal..lack of zip tie does not equal PC.

    And as a poster said, cop cannot take on the role of owner and cannot do anything other than tell owner at that point in time.

    No PC/no warrant = 4th amendment violation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post

    He was on duty. He, the other city cops, State Police, ATF agents, and employees (with arrest powers) of several other alphabet agencies.


    .
    Everyone has arrest powers, not just LEO. Sounds like from their rules that one could carry ammo for the gun as long as its not loaded within the gun.

    Stupid rules that only leave people defenseless.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Everyone has arrest powers, not just LEO. Sounds like from their rules that one could carry ammo for the gun as long as its not loaded within the gun.

    Stupid rules that only leave people defenseless.
    Seems to me you were the one that brought up on duty/off duty status. As in

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Ok....

    . And this cop was not on duty? ~ sue both the venue and cop in his personal capacity (immunity pierced easy enough) (was working security? find out ~ many PDs require cops to ask permission to do outside work) and the town if he was wearing his uniform.
    Follow-up questions - have you ever exercised you powers of "citizen arrest"? Was it for anything less that a violent felony? How did you transport the person you arrested to the magistrate? Maybe not serious considerations up in Yankee-land but around here you either do it absolutely by the book or open yourself to a charge of kidnapping as well as civil suit for everything up to and including walking upright and impersonating a human being.

    stay safe.
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  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Everyone has arrest powers, not just LEO. Sounds like from their rules that one could carry ammo for the gun as long as its not loaded within the gun.

    Stupid rules that only leave people defenseless.
    Good to see you haven't changed. We were running low an people to laugh at.

    Can you arrest for a felony...absolutely and it's even codified to reinforce the idea.
    Can you arrest for a misdeamenor.....not in the code but there is enough case law to say yes..but only for a breach of the peace, which that hardly qualifies as.

    Can you transport...it's open but people have been charged with kidnapping.

    Have you ever arrested a cop ??????
    Last edited by peter nap; 09-06-2015 at 06:09 PM.

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    Regular Member Liberty-or-Death's Avatar
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    I've got McBeth on my ignore list for reasons I believe are obvious. If you folks wouldn't mind, the opening post is about gun show rules and I would like to read your discussion on that.
    Be active.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    It's their show, it's their rules.

    There's definitely some vendors at gun shows who certainly need to be reminded of those rules. I'm particularly thinking of the bad tempered loud mouth selling the hidden holsters that Mr Nap had a run in with a couple of years ago and who keeps muzzle sweeping the entire exhibition hall when he spews his sales pitch.

    I'm scared to go to gun shows now because of him, I see his actions and ....
    Quote Originally Posted by some lady part, a cat, or .. a willow
    I have no idea what he might do next, it terrifies me, think of the children and the fact my baseball team just got beat .....
    Last edited by scouser; 09-06-2015 at 09:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Good to see you haven't changed. We were running low an people to laugh at.

    <snip>
    Personal attacks generally = cannot offer any other basis of attack on my argument.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 09-06-2015 at 11:38 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Personal attacks generally = cannot offer any other basis of attack on my argument.
    Stop crying David.
    I've said it before. With the absolute nonsense that comes out of you, I doubt your a lawyer and if you are, shame on the bar for allowing it.
    That's not a personal insult, rather a conclusion from your idiotic posts.
    You are a troll.
    As far as discrediting your argument....there is never anything you put out worth arguing over...just hot air and bull snitz
    Last edited by peter nap; 09-06-2015 at 11:47 PM.

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    More of the same ... not arguing against anything specified that I post, just rantings. I think some have sticker-toxic-syndrome. They should seek medical attention immediately.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Personal attacks generally = cannot offer any other basis of attack on my argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    More of the same ... not arguing against anything specified that I post, just rantings. I think some have sticker-toxic-syndrome. They should seek medical attention immediately.
    No need to repeat what I said David...why don't you pm me a copy of your Bar card. Better yet, take Skid up on his offer to come in person and bring it with you.You can show us the proper way to arrest an off duty cop.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Back to the subject matter. Off duty law enforcement officers really don't have much power to interfere with people on private property. Especially when there is no law violated. Like someone stated, he could lodged a complaint with the operator of the show. Other than that, he was out of line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Back to the subject matter. Off duty law enforcement officers really don't have much power to interfere with people on private property. Especially when there is no law violated. Like someone stated, he could lodged a complaint with the operator of the show. Other than that, he was out of line.
    Even ON duty cops...they are not agents of the property owner.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Back to the subject matter. Off duty law enforcement officers really don't have much power to interfere with people on private property. Especially when there is no law violated. Like someone stated, he could lodged a complaint with the operator of the show. Other than that, he was out of line.
    If you do a search I posted an FOIA response from Henrico that gave their rules for off duty officers moonlighting.
    They are only responsible for the venue they are working for.
    The application is actually taken by the PD and they assign the officer to it.

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    Those gun show "No loaded firearms allowed" rules are required by the insurance companies (very short list of them nationwide per my understanding) in order to write coverage.

    In years past three different promoters showed me copies of their policies, because I just had to see them for myself, and asked very politely.

    It would likely be in vain but I suppose that attendees not in agreement with those stipulations could make written complaints complete with threats of boycotts, etc.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    Those gun show "No loaded firearms allowed" rules are required by the insurance companies (very short list of them nationwide per my understanding) in order to write coverage.

    In years past three different promoters showed me copies of their policies, because I just had to see them for myself, and asked very politely.

    It would likely be in vain but I suppose that attendees not in agreement with those stipulations could make written complaints complete with threats of boycotts, etc.
    Your right..it wouldn't do any good especially this year. The gunshows are under attack and lots being planned for this legislative year.

    For a couple of shows they brought in a real nasty female cop from somewhere. Every time I'd walk past her she'd start the SIR...DO YOU HAVE A GUN. I just started ignoring her and she'd run through half the building squawking the same thing before she'd give up.
    They finally got rid of her I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Your right..it wouldn't do any good especially this year. The gunshows are under attack and lots being planned for this legislative year.

    For a couple of shows they brought in a real nasty female cop from somewhere. Every time I'd walk past her she'd start the SIR...DO YOU HAVE A GUN. I just started ignoring her and she'd run through half the building squawking the same thing before she'd give up.
    They finally got rid of her I guess.
    That's the best course of action ... just ignoring them.

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