davidmcbeth
Banned
Even ON duty cops...they are not agents of the property owner.
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SGK Gun show rules
- Thread starter Liberty-or-Death
- Start date
Even ON duty cops...they are not agents of the property owner.
If you do a search I posted an FOIA response from Henrico that gave their rules for off duty officers moonlighting.
They are only responsible for the venue they are working for.
The application is actually taken by the PD and they assign the officer to it.
Brian D.
Regular Member
Those gun show "No loaded firearms allowed" rules are required by the insurance companies (very short list of them nationwide per my understanding) in order to write coverage.
In years past three different promoters showed me copies of their policies, because I just had to see them for myself, and asked very politely.
It would likely be in vain but I suppose that attendees not in agreement with those stipulations could make written complaints complete with threats of boycotts, etc.
In years past three different promoters showed me copies of their policies, because I just had to see them for myself, and asked very politely.
It would likely be in vain but I suppose that attendees not in agreement with those stipulations could make written complaints complete with threats of boycotts, etc.
Your right..it wouldn't do any good especially this year. The gunshows are under attack and lots being planned for this legislative year.
For a couple of shows they brought in a real nasty female cop from somewhere. Every time I'd walk past her she'd start the SIR...DO YOU HAVE A GUN. I just started ignoring her and she'd run through half the building squawking the same thing before she'd give up.
They finally got rid of her I guess.
davidmcbeth
Banned
That's the best course of action ... just ignoring them.
Liberty-or-Death
Regular Member
One would think that their industry, the gun show producers, would have an established written policy that conforms to all their insurance requirements, posted on their websites and provided with receipt at admission. It would also be included as part of the vendor agreement, and as part of the paid security force training.
This would, in my opinion, serve to level the field so to speak. Everyone playing by the same rules is a good thing. Knowing what they are is even better.
This would, in my opinion, serve to level the field so to speak. Everyone playing by the same rules is a good thing. Knowing what they are is even better.
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Gonna have to do better than that Davy. Give it some time and get better material.
Wish I had met her. For several shows I have gone in sans gun but with a lump in my pocket that was neither a banana nor in indication I was happy to see you. Just FRNs that I might trade for "stuff".
"SIR...DO YOU HAVE A GUN?"
"Why, yes. Yes I do. More than one, as a matter of fact. Why?"
Not only would the TSA-like grope be epic, but the look on all of their faces would be epic. And no, I would never even think of accusing them of having misplaced any of my FRNs just because they did not do an inventory of them. (Yes, I do carry a list of serial numbers when carrying large numbers of FRNs.)
stay safe.
davidmcbeth
Banned
Who picks their insurance? THEY do. So don't blame it on anyone else but yourself. Right?
1 - state law requires them to have liability insurance. No policy no show. Sucks, but that is the law until it gets changed. Come on down and show us how to accomplish that.
2 - underwriters want to mitigate paying out as much as is possible. Used to be Connecticut was the "capital" of insurance underwriters in the US, so I have reason to believe that information sort of seeped into the knowledge base. I could be wrong.
3 - there is a limited field of underwriters to choose from. Besides geographic regions where they offer/are allowed to offer policies, there is little to suggest any significant difference in terms and conditions, or cost, between them.
And yet almost everybody makes a profit at gun shows. Go figure.
stay safe.
wrearick
Regular Member
What did the Gun Show Coordinator do wrong? (in honor of school starting up again today here is a back to school basics of how NOT to run the show)
1. Allowed Vendors and their employees to enter leave through the loading dock area without having to come through the main entrance where they would have been "fully informed" of the rules and regulations and able to have their firearms properly inspected and marked (zip tied). All merchandise and product should have been loaded into the hall a minimum of 2 hours before the show start time. Two hours prior to the start of the show the hall would be emptied of all personnel except for security personnel, and once the space was verified free of people, allow the vendors to come in through the main entrance, subject to ALL attendee inspections to ensure that all firearms are unloaded. Instead, they give/gave a lot of freedom to the vendors of freedom, allowing them uncontrolled access through the loading areas and TRUSTED them to follow the rules.
2. Establish harsh penalties for those who violate their trusted status as vendors either by not following applicable rules, laws and procedures (i.e. deciding the rules shouldn't apply to them). Those penalties should be IMMEDIATE expulsion from the show and their vendor fee forfeited. Immediate means all employees and personnel associated with that vendor are immediately escorted from the building. Security personnel will do their best to secure the vendors products until after the show closes at which time the vendor can come in and retrieve his merchandise.
3. Add a clause to the contract that stipulates that while security personnel will make an effort to safeguard the products of any expelled vendor their primary duty is to circulate and ensure the safety of the event and the Gun Show Coordinator will not be held liable for any merchandise which may end up missing.
The above is a satirical view of the ridiculous lengths a Gun Show Coordinator would have to go to in order to "ensure" the rules are followed for ALL. Folks need to realize the firearms are serious stuff and can kill you. IF you are attending a gun show and you are not following the very specific, posted procedures (but what you consider to be sufficient to met the intent) until it can be proven that you are indeed not carrying a loaded firearm you should expect to be treated like you are carrying a loaded firearm. Put yourself in the position of a LEO/security person. You observe someone who appears to be carrying a loaded firearm. He should not have been able to get on the floor that way but he did. I do not subscribe to drawing your service weapon and ordering the perp/patron/person facedown on the floor but I also don't subscribe to 'asking' the person to bring his weapon out to a ready position so he can show me it is unloaded. To easy to end up dead if it is really an evil person with evil intent (beef with a vendor over a previous deal, desperate to steal weapons/money and run out the back door, someone from an anti-group looking to prove gunshows are dangerous and should be forbidden, on and on).
Yes, I know, it was only a rules violation and not a law violation and the "employee" DID have an unloaded weapon but it was impossible to tell that from any distance and the procedures to indicate an unloaded weapon were NOT followed. A LEO/security office should not have to risk his LIFE by asking for the person to handle his weapon and demonstrate it is unloaded. The Risk analysis formula puts the consequences extremely dire if the weapon is loaded and the persons intent is bad. It is not illegal to walk into a posted financial institution with a firearm but the security personnel are going to go to condition RED if someone does. A finger in a pocket of a sweatshirt can get you arrested, tried and convicted of armed robbery even though no firearm was used in the commission of the crime. Why? What makes these different is the consequences if the thing in the pocket IS a gun. the victim doesn't take a chance and challenge the robber, the potential consequences do not warrant the risk. It appears to be a weapon and it causes the same compliance as a weapon, and gets treated by the justice system as a weapon.
I have gone on too long and wandered too far.....nough said.
1. Allowed Vendors and their employees to enter leave through the loading dock area without having to come through the main entrance where they would have been "fully informed" of the rules and regulations and able to have their firearms properly inspected and marked (zip tied). All merchandise and product should have been loaded into the hall a minimum of 2 hours before the show start time. Two hours prior to the start of the show the hall would be emptied of all personnel except for security personnel, and once the space was verified free of people, allow the vendors to come in through the main entrance, subject to ALL attendee inspections to ensure that all firearms are unloaded. Instead, they give/gave a lot of freedom to the vendors of freedom, allowing them uncontrolled access through the loading areas and TRUSTED them to follow the rules.
2. Establish harsh penalties for those who violate their trusted status as vendors either by not following applicable rules, laws and procedures (i.e. deciding the rules shouldn't apply to them). Those penalties should be IMMEDIATE expulsion from the show and their vendor fee forfeited. Immediate means all employees and personnel associated with that vendor are immediately escorted from the building. Security personnel will do their best to secure the vendors products until after the show closes at which time the vendor can come in and retrieve his merchandise.
3. Add a clause to the contract that stipulates that while security personnel will make an effort to safeguard the products of any expelled vendor their primary duty is to circulate and ensure the safety of the event and the Gun Show Coordinator will not be held liable for any merchandise which may end up missing.
The above is a satirical view of the ridiculous lengths a Gun Show Coordinator would have to go to in order to "ensure" the rules are followed for ALL. Folks need to realize the firearms are serious stuff and can kill you. IF you are attending a gun show and you are not following the very specific, posted procedures (but what you consider to be sufficient to met the intent) until it can be proven that you are indeed not carrying a loaded firearm you should expect to be treated like you are carrying a loaded firearm. Put yourself in the position of a LEO/security person. You observe someone who appears to be carrying a loaded firearm. He should not have been able to get on the floor that way but he did. I do not subscribe to drawing your service weapon and ordering the perp/patron/person facedown on the floor but I also don't subscribe to 'asking' the person to bring his weapon out to a ready position so he can show me it is unloaded. To easy to end up dead if it is really an evil person with evil intent (beef with a vendor over a previous deal, desperate to steal weapons/money and run out the back door, someone from an anti-group looking to prove gunshows are dangerous and should be forbidden, on and on).
Yes, I know, it was only a rules violation and not a law violation and the "employee" DID have an unloaded weapon but it was impossible to tell that from any distance and the procedures to indicate an unloaded weapon were NOT followed. A LEO/security office should not have to risk his LIFE by asking for the person to handle his weapon and demonstrate it is unloaded. The Risk analysis formula puts the consequences extremely dire if the weapon is loaded and the persons intent is bad. It is not illegal to walk into a posted financial institution with a firearm but the security personnel are going to go to condition RED if someone does. A finger in a pocket of a sweatshirt can get you arrested, tried and convicted of armed robbery even though no firearm was used in the commission of the crime. Why? What makes these different is the consequences if the thing in the pocket IS a gun. the victim doesn't take a chance and challenge the robber, the potential consequences do not warrant the risk. It appears to be a weapon and it causes the same compliance as a weapon, and gets treated by the justice system as a weapon.
I have gone on too long and wandered too far.....nough said.
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Liberty-or-Death
Regular Member
I'm not sure the "very specific posted procedures" were in fact posted.
As I've said, a level playing field in which all the rules are known would be good.
As I've said, a level playing field in which all the rules are known would be good.
thedevilrobyjohn
Regular Member
Fredericksburg gunshow
I attend MANY shows, MANy. The Fred show this weekend was poor. Half of the facility was closed off. Seemed as if the ac was off. Many vendor friends of mine voiced concerns about current state and attendance. I was disappointed but Ryan's made up for it. Let's say an anti tipped on destruction of us came into show with ak mag hidden. Goes to table...zip tie off and blam, my son don't see first birthday. Me and that boogie man again. As I walk by desk I pay no attention to any questions or statements at gun shows. Funny how Hillsville posts it on fences but asks not and has no checkers and I think no one cares especially. Anyone ever to Hillsville can back me on this, was there for three days this go around, not one vcdl sticker anywhere. Shame on me.
I attend MANY shows, MANy. The Fred show this weekend was poor. Half of the facility was closed off. Seemed as if the ac was off. Many vendor friends of mine voiced concerns about current state and attendance. I was disappointed but Ryan's made up for it. Let's say an anti tipped on destruction of us came into show with ak mag hidden. Goes to table...zip tie off and blam, my son don't see first birthday. Me and that boogie man again. As I walk by desk I pay no attention to any questions or statements at gun shows. Funny how Hillsville posts it on fences but asks not and has no checkers and I think no one cares especially. Anyone ever to Hillsville can back me on this, was there for three days this go around, not one vcdl sticker anywhere. Shame on me.
Good to see you back here, Roby. Hope all the family things are under control.
Yes, Hillsville is in "a different world" - and sadly too far out for some of us to make it regularly. Thanks for going out and keeping the show alive.
Check your PMs.
stay safe.
Yes, Hillsville is in "a different world" - and sadly too far out for some of us to make it regularly. Thanks for going out and keeping the show alive.
Check your PMs.
stay safe.
I got asked to leave Ryans when we stopped there after a show. Seems they didn't want my sidearm in their restaurant.