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Thread: New to OC.org confused about vehicles and OC

  1. #1
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    New to OC.org confused about vehicles and OC

    Hello,

    Thought I'd introduce myself before asking questions. My name is Rob. I'm 34 and a father of 2, will be 3 in a few weeks. I live outside of Cleveland. I've been debating on whether to get my CCW or not. I've had people to tell me to, and people tell me not to. I came across this website trying to find reliable information on open carry. After reading the first 2 pages of topics, I decided to register because of the how thorough the responses were.

    One thing that I can't seam to come to a comfortable conclusion on myself is about the laws with vehicles and open carry. I understand once you get in a vehicle or on a motorcycle its considered concealed. This is a two part question.

    2923.16 Improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle.

    (A) No person shall knowingly discharge a firearm while in or on a motor vehicle.

    (B) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle in such a manner that the firearm is accessible to the operator or any passenger without leaving the vehicle.

    (C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless the person may lawfully possess that firearm under applicable law of this state or the United States, the firearm is unloaded, and the firearm is carried in one of the following ways:

    (1) In a closed package, box, or case;


    (2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;

    First question. I drive a chevy trailblazer (suv). Technically everywhere in a suv is accessible without leaving the vehicle. At 34 I am still perfectly capable of climbing over my seats all the way back to the tailgate. So, if I put my clip in my center console and my gun in one of the back non-locking compartments meant for jumper cables or whatever is that sufficient? Or if I put my clip all the way in the back and lock my gun in the glove box or simply put it in the center console? What's my best bet here to not have to deal with any headaches?

    Second question. On a motorcycle, is putting the clip in my pocket and the gun under the rear locking rear seat(sport bike) fine? If not, how do I go about transporting it? What about a Cruiser (Harley) with no locking compartments?

    Also, If you wouldn't mind. From your point of view what would be some major pros and cons to ccw vs oc.

    Thanks in advance.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO!

    I'll try to help with your questions as best I can. Something to keep in mind, since you did not mention this in your quote of the ORC, you need to worry more about transporting it in an unloaded condition since you have no "compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle". So, section (K) (5) (a) defines unloaded:

    (K) As used in this section:

    (5)

    (a) "Unloaded" means, with respect to a firearm other than a firearm described in division (K)(6) of this section, that no ammunition is in the firearm in question, no magazine or speed loader containing ammunition is inserted into the firearm in question , and one of the following applies:

    (i) There is no ammunition in a magazine or speed loader that is in the vehicle in question and that may be used with the firearm in question.

    (ii) Any magazine or speed loader that contains ammunition and that may be used with the firearm in question is stored in a compartment within the vehicle in question that cannot be accessed without leaving the vehicle or is stored in a container that provides complete and separate enclosure.

    (b) For the purposes of division (K)(5)(a)(ii) of this section, a "container that provides complete and separate enclosure" includes, but is not limited to, any of the following:

    (i) A package, box, or case with multiple compartments, as long as the loaded magazine or speed loader and the firearm in question either are in separate compartments within the package, box, or case, or, if they are in the same compartment, the magazine or speed loader is contained within a separate enclosure in that compartment that does not contain the firearm and that closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents or the firearm is contained within a separate enclosure of that nature in that compartment that does not contain the magazine or speed loader;

    (ii) A pocket or other enclosure on the person of the person in question that closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents.
    On to your examples:

    If I put my clip in my center console and my gun in one of the back non-locking compartments meant for jumper cables or whatever is that sufficient?
    As long as both the center console and the back non-locking compartments "closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents", that looks to be sufficient.

    Or if I put my clip all the way in the back and lock my gun in the glove box or simply put it in the center console?
    That also looks to be sufficient, as long as both the unloaded gun and loaded magazines are in containers that provide complete and separate enclosure and "close using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents". And of course, in all of these scenarios, there is no round in the chamber of the gun...

    Along those lines, if the center console and glove compartment both "close using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents" you could put the unloaded gun in one and loaded magazines in the other.

    My favorite example of a way to carry that meets the conditions in the law the way I read it is to put the unloaded gun in the center compartment of a range bag that closes with a zipper and the loaded magazine(s) in an outside pocket that closes with a zipper or velcro, then put the bag on the passenger seat beside you. As long as the unloaded gun and loaded magazines are completely and separately enclosed, they can be in the same range bag, and the range bag can be anywhere in the motor vehicle.

    On a motorcycle, is putting the clip in my pocket and the gun under the rear locking rear seat(sport bike) fine? If not, how do I go about transporting it? What about a Cruiser (Harley) with no locking compartments?
    If your pocket completely encloses the magazine and "closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents", then sure, that would work. If not, then you need to find something else to put the magazine in that does do those two things. Remember, it doesn't have to be a locking enclosure. Saddlebags are fine, gun in one magazines in the other, or put the gun in a zipper case and magazines in another zipper case and put both in the same saddle bag or in that compartment under the seat. I've also seen zipper cases with magazine compartments on the outside of the case that close with velcro. Almost like they are made for Ohio or something...

    I won't go into the pro/con of OC vs CC, there are plenty of other threads dealing with them. I OC mostly, but CC when it suits me (usually when wearing a coat or jacket). I do have my Concealed Handgun License, because it allows me to carry how I want and however is convenient for me, and I don't have to do the Buckeye Shuffle described above just to get into/onto a motor vehicle.

    So, there you have it - if you have any other questions, feel free to ask and I or one of the other Ohio forum members will do our best to help.
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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Culli View Post
    ...First question. I drive a chevy trailblazer (suv). Technically everywhere in a suv is accessible without leaving the vehicle. At 34 I am still perfectly capable of climbing over my seats all the way back to the tailgate. So, if I put my clip in my center console and my gun in one of the back non-locking compartments meant for jumper cables or whatever is that sufficient? Or if I put my clip all the way in the back and lock my gun in the glove box or simply put it in the center console? What's my best bet here to not have to deal with any headaches?...
    What are you debating about regarding getting your CHL?

    A CHL gives you the option of concealing, for whatever reason, and allows loaded car carry. Also, if you're interested in having a loaded handgun in your car for self-protection, why concern yourself with the transport rules, except as they apply to longarms?

    btw, your sidearm has a clip?
    Last edited by BB62; 09-09-2015 at 09:08 PM.

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    Thanks Nightmare. After I posted I started pretty much going thread to thread and I'm now on page 7. You guys are awesome, appreciate all the information, and am thoroughly enjoying the smartass banter also. Questions I haven't even thought of yet, have been answered. And a few more have come up.

    As far as alcohol is concerned. I know carrying after any drinking is not legal. But, lets say I'm oc'ing and my gun is legally secured in my car(still need the answer on that) and stop to visit my dad. 99% of the time, my fiancé will swear its more, we end up wrenching on his motorcycle, his truck, or one of my sisters cars and typically drink a few beers throughout the night. If my gun stays legally secured in my vehicle and I'm legally under the limit or have my fiancé drive home. Which typically is the case just because our kids are in the car and she's pregnant and 110% sober. There should be no issue, right?

    Another question that I haven't came across an answer for yet is. With winter coming and my gun is on my hip outside my pants (OC) does my jacket covering my gun make it CC? Fully covered or partially? Do I need to dress for the gun or if its on my hip outside my pants I'm ok?

    Thanks.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Culli View Post
    As far as alcohol is concerned. I know carrying after any drinking is not legal.
    Technically, the standard is "under the influence" but with the wrong LEO and the right (wrong?) judge even one beer can get you jacked up, the safe bet is as you say no carry after any drinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Culli View Post
    But, lets say I'm oc'ing and my gun is legally secured in my car(still need the answer on that)
    See my previous post for legally transporting an unloaded gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Culli View Post
    and stop to visit my dad. 99% of the time, my fiancé will swear its more, we end up wrenching on his motorcycle, his truck, or one of my sisters cars and typically drink a few beers throughout the night. If my gun stays legally secured in my vehicle and I'm legally under the limit or have my fiancé drive home. Which typically is the case just because our kids are in the car and she's pregnant and 110% sober. There should be no issue, right?
    As I understand it, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Culli View Post
    Another question that I haven't came across an answer for yet is. With winter coming and my gun is on my hip outside my pants (OC) does my jacket covering my gun make it CC? Fully covered or partially? Do I need to dress for the gun or if its on my hip outside my pants I'm ok?
    If your jacket covers the gun, it is concealed. If it is only partially covered, it depends - if it is readily discernible as a gun to normal observation, then it is not concealed even if partially covered. But that's walking a pretty fine line with a jacket...

    As BB62 said, it is probably worth it to get your CHL here in Ohio, both for winter clothing and carry in/on a motor vehicle? I see you are in NE Ohio as am I, depending on where, I can point you to a class and help you through the process of obtaining yours.
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    IANAL and anything I say is not intended to be nor should it be taken as legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    What are you debating about regarding getting your CHL?

    A CHL gives you the option of concealing, for whatever reason, and allows loaded car carry. Also, if you're interested in having a loaded handgun in your car for self-protection, why concern yourself with the transport rules, except as they apply to longarms?

    btw, your sidearm has a clip?
    The reason I'm debating is honestly, I'm not really sure. My dad had his ccw and decided to give it up. He said that with the ccw you get in more trouble if you "slip" since your licensed and should know better. Example would be he got in a bar fight, his gun was locked in a safe in the trunk of the car. The city he lives in is a smaller community and everyone pretty much knows everyone. So they knew he had a ccw and pretty much harassed him to open his trunk thinking/knowing his gun was with although not on him. Not going to go into all the details, but he refused, and later all charges but the fight were dropped. Also, said that if it came to shooting someone with a ccw (again licensed and should no better) would be more scrutinized than a legal owner with no ccw.

    I'm just trying to cover all basis. Within the next few days/weeks I will have my 3rd kid, all under 3. I'm not looking to try and abusive any possible interpretations of any law, just want to make sure if I ever have to protect myself or my family I am in the best possible position to not end up on the losing side of some stupid loophole or whatever that I didn't know or understand because I never asked.

    as far as my sidearm, sorry for the misuse of the word, it does have a magazine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustaShooter View Post
    Technically, the standard is "under the influence" but with the wrong LEO and the right (wrong?) judge even one beer can get you jacked up, the safe bet is as you say no carry after any drinking.
    I do have an OVI and in my hotel weekend we were told that the .08 is not technically official. It's officer discretion that is the law. You can be under the limit, but still get an OVI if the officer decides you are impaired to drive. So to me any alcohol means that same as a pissed off fiancé in bed, NO!

    Very much appreciate the replies just trying to better educate myself.

    edit: I live in chardon
    Last edited by Culli; 09-09-2015 at 10:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Culli View Post
    The reason I'm debating is honestly, I'm not really sure. My dad had his ccw and decided to give it up. He said that with the ccw you get in more trouble if you "slip" since your licensed and should know better. Example would be he got in a bar fight, his gun was locked in a safe in the trunk of the car. The city he lives in is a smaller community and everyone pretty much knows everyone. So they knew he had a ccw and pretty much harassed him to open his trunk thinking/knowing his gun was with although not on him. Not going to go into all the details, but he refused, and later all charges but the fight were dropped. Also, said that if it came to shooting someone with a ccw (again licensed and should no better) would be more scrutinized than a legal owner with no ccw.

    I'm just trying to cover all basis. Within the next few days/weeks I will have my 3rd kid, all under 3. I'm not looking to try and abusive any possible interpretations of any law, just want to make sure if I ever have to protect myself or my family I am in the best possible position to not end up on the losing side of some stupid loophole or whatever that I didn't know or understand because I never asked...
    You can research and research until the end of time, and you'll still get no guarantees - from us, from an attorney, or from a prosecutor. It's the nature of the beast.

    Your Dad should have known better than to get into a bar fight - gun or not, in the car or not.

    Only you know yourself. If you feel you can conduct yourself within the law, and within what you estimate would be the boundaries set on lawful, defensive behavior by a jury of NON-gun owners: 1) you didn't start the conflict, 2) you tried to retreat, 3) you had a reasonable and honest belief of death or serious bodily injury - then you've done about all you can.

    If you look for reasons not to have a gun, or not to carry it, you'll find them easily. Similarly, you can easily find reasons to carry.

    Whether you carry openly or concealed, you'd damn well be ready, willing, and able, on ALL levels (mindset, legal, and financial) to use the gun for self-defense if the need arises. If not, don't even bother to buy a gun in the first place.

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    BB62 appreciate the harsh honesty. I'm not looking for guarantees, just direction and knowledge. My dad was defending someone that was being an ass, but family is family. As far as being damn well ready on all levels. I am more than willing to sit in front of 12 than watch my kids, or any of my family for that matter, be carried by 6. I've been around guns most my life, and have had one in the house for a long time now, just never carried. And seeing the way things have been going lately, I'm getting more and more concerned about public and not just being sure we're safe if someone comes through the door.

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    I do however have another question about what someone said in old thread. Went to message the person, but he is banned.

    "However, I recommend carrying openly and sterile. That's how I handled keeping a cop's hands off my license during a rogue stop. During my first encounter at Eastdale Mall, I did not know about carrying sterile, and was forced to give the officer my license. During my second encounter, my CPL and my DL were in my car. If the officers had demanded either of them, I would have simply stared blankly at them"

    What exactly does he mean by sterile?

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    In that context "sterile" meant that person was carrying NO form of identification documents. Won't debate the concept other than to say it isn't very practical unless one has no need to operate a motor vehicle during those occasions, or purchase alcohol, tobacco, etc. someplace that every customer is ID'd, and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    In that context "sterile" meant that person was carrying NO form of identification documents. Won't debate the concept other than to say it isn't very practical unless one has no need to operate a motor vehicle during those occasions, or purchase alcohol, tobacco, etc. someplace that every customer is ID'd, and so on.
    One must be in a vehicle to operate it - leave DL in the vehicle. I do that regularly and only carry debit/credit cards - very practical - that's all folks.
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    Stop and identify 'law' is a whole 'nother hairball.

    Realize the difference between verbally/orally disclosing ones identity, and surrendering personal documents. Documents are papers protected by the Fourth Amendment.

    If one is engaging in a licensed activity, then that law may require surrender of licensing documents.

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.29
    2921.29 Failure to disclose personal information.
    (A) No person who is in a public place shall refuse to disclose the person's name, address, or date of birth, when requested by a law enforcement officer who reasonably suspects either of the following:
    [ ... ] [means I left stuff out]
    C) Nothing in this section requires a person to answer any questions beyond that person's name, address, or date of birth. Nothing in this section authorizes a law enforcement officer to arrest a person for not providing any information beyond that person's name, address, or date of birth or for refusing to describe the offense observed.
    My state's law is different from Ohio, I do not carry my DL as an identification document.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 09-10-2015 at 06:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Culli View Post
    BB62 appreciate the harsh honesty. I'm not looking for guarantees, just direction and knowledge. My dad was defending someone that was being an ass, but family is family. As far as being damn well ready on all levels. I am more than willing to sit in front of 12 than watch my kids, or any of my family for that matter, be carried by 6. I've been around guns most my life, and have had one in the house for a long time now, just never carried. And seeing the way things have been going lately, I'm getting more and more concerned about public and not just being sure we're safe if someone comes through the door.
    Fair enough.

    But, based on the comfort level you've just described you have with various things, I'm puzzled as to your question "CHL or not?" and/or "Carry (at least sometimes) or not?".

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