Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30

Thread: open carry empty holster may have prevented an assault; Seward park sign out of date

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    king county
    Posts
    162

    open carry empty holster may have prevented an assault; Seward park sign out of date

    I was at Denny Blaine Park Saturday afternoon for almost an hour, 09/12/2015.

    While I was there, two fellows approached me and one of them, speaking, attempted to coerce me into throwing my camera into Lake Washington or giving it to him to do so. (Forgive me for carrying and using a camera at the clothing-optional beach . . .)

    I had an empty holster on my belt on my hip.

    I believe the empty holster prevented any worse conflict than his verbal unhappiness with me.

    I will find a way to make you folks, the SAF, a gift at some point.

    Thanks for your previous suit against the Seattle attempt to prevent the presence of legal carry in Seattle's parks.

    By the way, down at Seward park in South Seattle on the water of Lake Washington, there is a sign announcing rules for visitors to the park. The sign says no firearms or no weapons or whatever it says . . . I was there on Labor day but I don't remember the exact words, simply that it appears to be an old sign never removed.

    You or one of your friends could have some fun and go and open carry and create some photos near or with the sign. It could be a nice gift for some of the city council.

    http://greenlakewalking.net/saturday...and-greenlake/

    z

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,616
    Take notice.

    This thread will be retained only if everyone stays on the high road. It is about guns, OC, RKBA and right to photograph in public.

    It is not about how the participants are dressed.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  3. #3
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    Why was the holster empty?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  4. #4
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,880
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Take notice.

    This thread will be retained only if everyone stays on the high road. It is about guns, OC, RKBA and right to photograph in public.

    It is not about how the participants are dressed.
    couldn't resist could you grape...had to go down that stark and bare path unadorned didn't you.

    geez, cheeeezy..

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  5. #5
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,880
    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Why was the holster empty?
    so many responses so little time...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  6. #6
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Dallas
    Posts
    1,597
    35mm camera or something 4x larger - like my Rollei 120?

    So you were using a belt holster, not the OCDO preferred belly-flapper?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
    -Thomas Hobbes 1651

  7. #7
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    996
    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    (Forgive me for carrying and using a camera at the clothing-optional beach . . .)
    From a statutory standpoint, in almost every situation, a camera and your standard issue eyeballs are legally identical. If you can look at it you can take a picture. If photography is prohibited, looking usually is too. Upskirting is a good example of this, so is sneaking around while peeking into windows of houses at night. Sure, a lot of ignorant people will object to one or the other, but that doesn't change the legality of photography.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    I had an empty holster on my belt on my hip.

    I believe the empty holster prevented any worse conflict than his verbal unhappiness with me.
    Why was the holster empty? Why would an empty holster deter violence any more than an NRA t-shirt?

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Wa
    Posts
    12
    "Open carry empty holster"

    The hell is that?

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    king county
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Why was the holster empty?
    I have no felony convictions or DV convictions and no mental health commitments by judicial authority and I am qualified to purchase a handgun . . .

    but I was simply not yet inclined to go to the expense of purchase and some training . . .

    However, the question is, for a hypothetical attacker, what does the presence or possession of an empty holster mean?

    The fellow who owns 1 holster might own another one; the fellow with a holster may be carrying concealed or have other resources . . .

    The fellow who approached me and threatened me made the faulty claim that SPD would be there or "here" in 3 minutes, which I assume was his bad guess about SPD response time to a call about weapons, and not merely photography in a public place. (Though, for what it matters, in a study in about 2011, SPD response time on average to top priority calls was just over 6 minutes and not three minutes.)

    What we know is that
    1) on Saturday, August 1st, with no empty holster and pepper spray in my pocket and not on my wrist, I was manhandled and pushed around by one assaillant who was physically heavier than I was in identical circumstances;
    2) on Saturday, September 12th, with empty holster on my hip and pepper spray on my right wrist, while confronted and threatened by two heavy potential assaillants, and after being told that I must throw my camera in the lake or they would do it for me, neither of them touched me . . . and they went behind some bushes to allegedly call SPD . . . and they reappeared from the bushes to say that SPD was on their way and would be "here" in 3 minutes . . . and that SPD did not show up in 20 minutes and probably did not show up at all . . .

    We call all go to the Seattle online crime map and view the day's data for Saturday, September 12th, until the 48 hours have passed. There is or was no 911 call logged into the online crime map. I don't know if that means that the two potential attackers were completely bluffing . . . or if the 911 operator simply told the fellow that
    1) photography with an openly displayed camera at eye-level was not illegal;
    and
    2) No weapon being brandished meant no offense . . .

    and as a result, the 911 operator could have said, "we have a lot of other priorities . . . we might send someone over if there is nothing else going on"

    I know from experience in other contexts that people have called 911 to report something about me and SPD arrived 2 or more hours later, in cases in which they knew full well I was threatening no one and very likely to be not a threat and not engaged in actual harmful criminal activity.

    I do have religious and spiritual beliefs and the beliefs make it easy for me to face the possibility of my own death . . .

    do I wish to spend the $200 to $500 on the handgun and some training? I am simply not sure; I have not decided yet!

    z

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    king county
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    35mm camera or something 4x larger - like my Rollei 120?

    So you were using a belt holster, not the OCDO preferred belly-flapper?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I don't even know what is the ocdo preferred belly-flapper!

    The holster fits on one's belt . . .

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    king county
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post

    Why was the holster empty? Why would an empty holster deter violence any more than an NRA t-shirt?
    I don't know. I just know I wore it, together with the pepper spray I have on my right wrist. Two big fellows who approached me and who began a conversation by asking whether it would be my camera or my card that was about to be thrown into Lake Washington decided not to turn it anything physical such as assault or grabbing my camera.

    If I or a person were to approach one of you in public and mention some personal property item of yours I was about to destroy or cause you to destroy, you might assume that I or such a person wasn't thinking much of going by the law at that point.

    The two of them decided to withdraw to behind bushes, perhaps make a phone call or not, return to 12 feet in front of me and then say, Police will be in here 3 minutes and then withdraw to behind their bushes. They evidently did not even wish to be within sight of me for more than a few moments after we had our conversation.

    . . . I walk at Greenlake and there are people who spontaneously initiate conversations with me on various topics, including my sign or their asking me for directions or help in finding lost objects or animals or help in taking some photos. Maybe I have an aura that some people read in some contexts . . . I don't know.

    Of course, they might have successfully beat me up . . . or they might have ended up with two smashed windpipes and pepper spray in their faces . . .

    They choose not to grab my camera; how nice of them.

    by the way, from 1993 to 2001, there were stats gathered by one of the federal agencies . . . I think it is the national crime victimization survey.

    Approx 3/4 of assaults in the USA in that time period were done by attackers acting without weapons and approximately 7/8 rapes were done without weapons. Therefore, there is likely to be a significant number of opportunistic attacks against targets that are weak or are perceived as being weak and some of these attacks may well be deterred or stopped with weapons as minor as whistles, pepper spray and an openly visible empty holster.

    I am not saying to not carry . . . I am saying that even minor upgrades in perceived weaponry may have effect in preventing opportunistic crimes against weak victims.
    Last edited by zaitz; 09-14-2015 at 01:16 AM.

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    king county
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Take notice.

    This thread will be retained only if everyone stays on the high road. It is about guns, OC, RKBA and right to photograph in public.

    It is not about how the participants are dressed.
    I am so new . . . what even is rkba?

    Thanks!

    z

  13. #13
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lacey, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,990
    including my sign????
    RKBA= Right to keep, and bear arms.
    Empty holster, still confused/shaking head.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
    http://nwfood.shelfreliance.com

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,616
    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    --snipped-- I was manhandled and pushed around by one assaillant..........

    ......empty holster on my hip and pepper spray on my right wrist, while confronted and threatened.......
    Appears that your empty holster did not protect you as you would seem to suggest it would/should.

    IMO - the only way an empty holster symbolizes effective defense, is when the object it was designed to carry is being actively, manually manipulated to that end.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-14-2015 at 05:03 AM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    . . .

    but I was simply not yet inclined to go to the expense of purchase and some training . . .

    However, the question is, for a hypothetical attacker, what does the presence or possession of an empty holster mean?

    The fellow who owns 1 holster might own another one; the fellow with a holster may be carrying concealed or have other resources . . .


    do I wish to spend the $200 to $500 on the handgun and some training? I am simply not sure; I have not decided yet!

    z
    If the handgun is not some sort of magic talisman that will protect you by its mere presence, there is no way that an empty holster is some sort of magic talisman either.

    Your thought about the fellow who owns one holster and what he may or may not also own or have with him is as close to crazy as I want to get this week.

    But I do want to know where you can purchase a reliable handgun and even basic (NRA First Steps) training for between $200 and $500. I'd like to get in on that deal.

    My guess is that you know very little about handguns and about self defense, other than possibly what you have seen in the movies/on TV or read. IMHO only about 3% of carrying a handgun for self defense is training and proficiency - although the latter is vitally important and usually implies the former. IMHO 97% is about attitude and mindset. Putting on and carrying a handgun means you are willing and prepared to go all the way to causing the death of another person if that is the logical outcome of attempting to stop the threat of death or serious bodily injury to yourself or innocent others. We don't "shoot to kill" but sometimes someone we have shot dies.

    Please go back to "START" and spend some time deciding if carrying a handgun for self defense is the right course for you at this time. While you are doing that, please stop thinking that wearing an empty holster offers you any measure of protection.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  16. #16
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    WV
    Posts
    2,489
    Get a gun! And uh... post some pics already.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  17. #17
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,318
    This magic talisman language has come up numerous times, and while it is true that nothing servers as a "magic talisman", something most certainly can act as a deterrent without rising to the level of having "magic" power, including a holster, a shirt with a particular logo, demeanor, speech, or any other number of things.

    Whether or not that happened in this case, I wouldn't care to guess. Possibly not, maybe, but personally I'm not that interested, because I think that even if it did in this case, there's nothing to lead us to believe that an empty holster could ever reliably serve as a deterrent.
    Advocate freedom please

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,616
    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    This magic talisman language has come up numerous times, and while it is true that nothing servers as a "magic talisman", something most certainly can act as a deterrent without rising to the level of having "magic" power, including a holster, a shirt with a particular logo, demeanor, speech, or any other number of things.

    Whether or not that happened in this case, I wouldn't care to guess. Possibly not, maybe, but personally I'm not that interested, because I think that even if it did in this case, there's nothing to lead us to believe that an empty holster could ever reliably serve as a deterrent.
    Except as a deterrent to ever do that again where allowed to do otherwise.

    It is a sinking feeling when you elbow check for your holstered handgun and find nothing there to impede your elbow. Ask me how I know. (rhetorical)
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-14-2015 at 09:06 AM. Reason: fixed
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    This magic talisman language has come up numerous times, and while it is true that nothing servers as a "magic talisman", something most certainly can act as a deterrent without rising to the level of having "magic" power, including a holster, a shirt with a particular logo, demeanor, speech, or any other number of things.

    Whether or not that happened in this case, I wouldn't care to guess. Possibly not, maybe, but personally I'm not that interested, because I think that even if it did in this case, there's nothing to lead us to believe that an empty holster could ever reliably serve as a deterrent.
    In the instant case I'm presuming that the OP took this http://pcdcarry.com/info.html to the next step down.

    Those "things" [/disgusted voice] have been discussed previously, will all sorts of speculation about what might happen when the "perception" is no longer sufficient.

    I suggest that your "something"s do not by their mere presence act as a deterrent. For instance, a yellow t-shirt with "17th Street Royal Rangers" in black print might in certain neighborhoods act as a deterrent on even a scrawny 12-year old black kid, but putting one on a 6'8' well-muscled white guy with a high & tight and mirrored shades will do everything but deter bad things happening in that certain neighborhood or just about anywhere else. IMHO it's the object + the attitude (demeanor) that makes most things act as a deterrent - and the attitude (demeanor) without the thing often is sufficient in itself.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,137
    Quote Originally Posted by Latro View Post
    "Open carry empty holster" The hell is that?
    I have done this very thing. Now let me explain.....I was in New Jersey, where weapons are NOT allowed, and I was wearing an empty holster to generate conversation and protest NJs draconian gun laws.


    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post

    Please go back to "START" and spend some time deciding if carrying a handgun for self defense is the right course for you at this time. While you are doing that, please stop thinking that wearing an empty holster offers you any measure of protection. stay safe.
    Wearing an empty holster, in Washington State, is a declaration that you forgot to holster your weapon. If I was a bad guy, (sung to "if I was a rich man"), I would see your empty holster as an invitation to kick your butt because you are unarmed. BGs are not always that bright and deductive reasoning may not be in their toolbox.

    Someone will eventually come for you and your false sense of security may get you injured. Do not make a promise(I am armed and will defend myself) if you cannot follow through.


    If you need training, and it appears that you do, please feel free to contact us in Whatcom County. We will take you to a local range and get you started. I was a career Military firearms trainer and I think we can help you get up to speed. This is NOT a one time thing where you learn everything in one day. You will get basic firearm training that YOU must carry on with in the future.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 09-14-2015 at 11:16 AM. Reason: offer to train.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  21. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    king county
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    In the instant case I'm presuming that the OP took this http://pcdcarry.com/info.html to the next step down.

    Those "things" [/disgusted voice] have been discussed previously, will all sorts of speculation about what might happen when the "perception" is no longer sufficient.

    I suggest that your "something"s do not by their mere presence act as a deterrent. For instance, a yellow t-shirt with "17th Street Royal Rangers" in black print might in certain neighborhoods act as a deterrent on even a scrawny 12-year old black kid, but putting one on a 6'8' well-muscled white guy with a high & tight and mirrored shades will do everything but deter bad things happening in that certain neighborhood or just about anywhere else. IMHO it's the object + the attitude (demeanor) that makes most things act as a deterrent - and the attitude (demeanor) without the thing often is sufficient in itself.

    stay safe.
    The environment of Denny Blaine Park on sunny summer days is one heavily crowded with people. It appears that I have been assaulted once and threatened once by persons untrained. You folks like the idea of carrying handguns; I am not convinced it is necessary, yet, for my purpose.

    Till then, I gave a few persons one additional minor mental distraction . . . one additional item to consider . . . when weighing whether or not to punch me, grab me or grab the camera.

    I've been visiting the martial arts studio for a month . . . One thing they say/teach is that when your opponent is off balance and attempting to regain his balance, you have a significant advantage compared to when he is stationary. . . and the question includes, does my wearing an empty holster increase their distraction and put them slightly more off balance?

    given the fact that the fellow then claimed that SPD would be there in 3 minutes, I think it did.
    Last edited by zaitz; 09-14-2015 at 11:13 AM.

  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    The environment of Denny Blaine Park on sunny summer days is one heavily crowded with people. It appears that I have been assaulted once and threatened once by persons untrained. You folks like the idea of carrying handguns; I am not convinced it is necessary, yet, for my purpose.

    Till then, I gave a few persons one additional minor mental distraction . . . one additional item to consider . . . when weighing whether or not to punch me, grab me or grab the camera.

    I've been visiting the martial arts studio for a month . . . One thing they say/teach is that when your opponent is off balance and attempting to regain his balance, you have a significant advantage compared to when he is stationary. . . and the question includes, does my wearing an empty holster increase their distraction and put them slightly more off balance?...
    Wow. <shakes head at naivete>

  23. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    king county
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Wow. <shakes head at naivete>
    I have a lot to learn, surely . . . you are welcome to begin to educate me!

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,137
    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    I have a lot to learn, surely . . . you are welcome to begin to educate me!
    You have already had the cr@p kicked out of you and came close to losing that pretty little camera. Martial arts is nice for TV, hand2hand almost always gets you hurt (personal exp) and more than one BG complicates it more.

    You folks like the idea of carrying handguns; I am not convinced it is necessary, yet, for my purpose. Originally Posted by zaitz

    See the above where you were assaulted. Yes, we like to Openly Carry handguns so the BGs just move on to the next target. You, on the other hand, think you can get by, after the fact, with martial arts. Sorry mate, the best fight is the one where the BGs surrender without confrontation. AVOID battle but prepare for it. You seem to do neither. Why ask for help and when offered refuse it.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 09-14-2015 at 02:59 PM. Reason: spelig
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    missouri
    Posts
    497
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    If the handgun is not some sort of magic talisman that will protect you by its mere presence, there is no way that an empty holster is some sort of magic talisman either.

    Your thought about the fellow who owns one holster and what he may or may not also own or have with him is as close to crazy as I want to get this week.

    But I do want to know where you can purchase a reliable handgun and even basic (NRA First Steps) training for between $200 and $500. I'd like to get in on that deal.

    My guess is that you know very little about handguns and about self defense, other than possibly what you have seen in the movies/on TV or read. IMHO only about 3% of carrying a handgun for self defense is training and proficiency - although the latter is vitally important and usually implies the former. IMHO 97% is about attitude and mindset. Putting on and carrying a handgun means you are willing and prepared to go all the way to causing the death of another person if that is the logical outcome of attempting to stop the threat of death or serious bodily injury to yourself or innocent others. We don't "shoot to kill" but sometimes someone we have shot dies.

    Please go back to "START" and spend some time deciding if carrying a handgun for self defense is the right course for you at this time. While you are doing that, please stop thinking that wearing an empty holster offers you any measure of protection.

    stay safe.
    I know a firearms dealer here where you can purchase an SR9 for about $450... and there are some cheaper side arms around the 340+ range that do... OK, and cycle reliably. so you might be able to get 1 decent sidearm and 1 class....

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •