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Thread: Vaporized: National Park Service bans electronic smoking devices in nationís parks

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    Vaporized: National Park Service bans electronic smoking devices in nationís parks

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-smoking-devi/

    By Garrhh, they got their guns in my parks, let's see 'em get around this one! Off with their heads.
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    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to meanóneither more nor less."
    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be masteróthat's all.
    "
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    liberty takes another knife to the back...hold a mirror under her nose she's stopped twitching.
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    The smoke from those wild fires in Kalifornia has no effect on anyone.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Going to be difficult to defend that move based on the arguments used to ban smoking.

    But then they are counting on nobody getting their panties sufficiently wadded up to challenge this.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    According to the article, they're just applying the same rules of smoking to electronic cigarettes. Probably won't bother many.

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    Contrary to the title of this thread, the NPS has not banned vaporizer use in National Parks. Rather, the NPS has subjected vaporizers to the same restrictions as imposed on tobacco use such as pipes, cigarettes, and smokeless tobacco use.

    Vaporizer use is banned in government vehicles, in concessionaires, and other indoor areas.

    Whether this move is warranted by legitimate health concerns, safety issues, or comfort for non-vaping patrons is an interesting question. But using vaporizers remains legal in the vast majority of National Park land. At least out here in the West, most of the National Parks' areas comprise wide-open land...which we must pay to legally enter. This in contrast to National Park facilities farther east which tend to be more buildings, less land, and much more likely to be free admission.

    Charles
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    According to the article, they're just applying the same rules of smoking to electronic cigarettes. Probably won't bother many.
    I fear you do not understand the "science" behind cigarette bans, or the difference between electronic cigarettes and real cigarettes.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I fear you do not understand the "science" behind cigarette bans, or the difference between electronic cigarettes and real cigarettes.
    When folks fall into the trap of calling them "electronic cigarettes" (rather than "vaporizers") they help create the environment where vaporizes will be more easily treated the same as cigarettes.

    I'm not fully convinced that a little casual exposure to "second hand" cigarette smoke is nearly as dangerous as has been claimed. Living in a home with a heavy smoker or spending 8 hours a day in an office full of smokers? Sure, I can readily believe there are some real health risks. And for a rare few with particular sensitivities I can believe even minimal exposure may be a problem. But for them, so too is exposure to perfume, cologne, etc.

    I've got no beef if I catch a wiff of a cigarette, outdoors, from some distance away. A modicum of decency from the smoker not to blow it into my face is about all I need not to be overly bothered by the smoke itself.

    What I do know is that a couple of smokers indoors (or congregated next to doors) can create enough smoke that everyone else in the area is going to have to go home and wash (or dry clean) their clothing to get the stink out.

    I also know that out of all the smokers I've personally known in my life (including a gal I dated, close family members I love, and a lot of friends and coworkers) as well as those I see casually in passing, only two or three have been very careful about not littering. One was former military who learned in basic training about 60 years ago that dropping a butt on the ground resulted in very unpleasant punishment. The other two are just very opposed to littering. In my time as an assistant Scout master with the BSA, taking our patrol on service hikes to clean up trails I found that on a per-piece-of-litter basis, cig butts constituted upwards of 50% of all litter. This in an area where less than 10% of the population smokes but virtually everyone on a trail has potential litter from water bottles, candy bars, or other snacks. In short, the vast majority of cig smokers are self-absorbed, filthy, litter bugs who don't give a moment's thought to flicking their used butts onto the ground wherever they happen to be standing when they finish getting their fix. The notion of a pocket ashtray is as foreign to them as is flying to pigs.

    For non-smokers, the best things about vaporizers is that they don't generate smoke to foul my clothes; and they cost enough I don't see them being littered. (For smokers, they are tremendously beneficial in reducing the horrible health and lifestyle problems with smoking.)

    I fully understand how incrementalism has been used to push smoking farther and farther out of the mainstream and social acceptability. I also recognize that as fewer and fewer people smoke, there are more and more of us who have no personal reason to tolerate what is often the inconsiderate behavior of the ever shrinking number who continue to smoke.

    As gun owners we need to make sure we don't become an unpopular minority by continuing with the successful tactics we've used to make incrementalism work for us, rather than against us. We also need to make sure we are not legitimately seen as inconsiderate, rude, offensive, etc. We need not to litter when target shooting, not vandalize street signs, and we need to be prudent in weighing how far to push the social envelope in which situations as we work to normalize OC.

    Whether vaporizer use should be subject to the same restrictions as cigarettes is a separate discussion. I generally come down on the side of believing they need far fewer restrictions than do cigarettes.

    Charles
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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I fear you do not understand the "science" behind cigarette bans, or the difference between electronic cigarettes and real cigarettes.

    stay safe.
    I fear you've made an inaccurate assumption.

    Listen, as a former smoker, who quit thanks to my vaporizer January if this year, I'm a huge advocate of Vaping.

    I've been through the available science, and have a pretty good understanding of it.

    Vaporizers are definitely a great harm reduction strategy at worst.

    However, constant vapor around non smokers/Vapers can be obnoxious, distracting, and unpleasant.

    For these reasons, and the fact that some people are highly sensitive to propylene glycol, I have no problem with keeping Vaping to certain areas as smoking is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    However, constant vapor around non smokers/Vapers can be obnoxious, distracting, and unpleasant.

    For these reasons, and the fact that some people are highly sensitive to propylene glycol, I have no problem with keeping Vaping to certain areas as smoking is.
    The root problem causing our freedoms to be eroded is thus revealed. Keep your hands off the things I like but support government coercion to stop those I don't. I bet there are more people that find someone OCing a gun obnoxious, distracting, and unpleasant than vaping. Your nonchalant acceptance of draconian government restrictions on vaping is offensive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    The root problem causing our freedoms to be eroded is thus revealed. Keep your hands off the things I like but support government coercion to stop those I don't. I bet there are more people that find someone OCing a gun obnoxious, distracting, and unpleasant than vaping. Your nonchalant acceptance of draconian government restrictions on vaping is offensive.
    +1
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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    I have been vaping for over 3 years now. The day I purchased my first quality device, I gave away a half a pack of cigarettes... I NEVER give away cigarettes. But I knew on that day that I never wanted another one and I have never looked back since. Vaping anywhere I wanted and nobody complaining was a great thing. Why? Because I didn't offend people with the stink of my clothes or the smell of what I was vaping unlike when I smoked cigarettes. Suddenly, almost overnight, some very vocal people started to complain to people in high places about how bad vaping was for the public at large, just like 2nd hand smoke. This is complete bull$h!t. The science is there to prove how much safer vaping is compared to cigarettes. But it's just like gun control. Those that complain, ignore the facts just like the antis. They cherry pick the factual information and when the facts don't support them, they make stuff up.

    So now, we have rules and laws that apply to vaping as if it were smoking, even though vaping is NOT like smoking other then the physical action involved of inhaling and exhaling. So yes, this as others have stated, is more erosion of our rights in order to make others "feel good".
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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Vaporized: National Park Service bans electronic smoking devices in nationís ...

    Does anybody ever now ask you Vapers if they can 'bum a toke (or whatever) off you'? That has t/b a welcome change if so.


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    Last edited by HPmatt; 09-18-2015 at 06:35 PM.
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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    Does anybody ever now ask you Vapers if they can 'bum a toke (or whatever) off you'? That has t/b a welcome change if so.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I have had people that have seen me blow out a cloud of vapor, and then ask me if they can bum a smoke. I instantly respond that "I don't have any cigarettes" and they look at me confused and some have said that they just saw me smoking. I then show them what I using and they suddenly walk away because they're not gonna get what they want. But most of the time, I don't get bothered by smokers. I like the smokers that actually ask me what they can do to get a vapor product because they want to quit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    I fear you've made an inaccurate assumption.

    Listen, as a former smoker, who quit thanks to my vaporizer January if this year, I'm a huge advocate of Vaping.

    I've been through the available science, and have a pretty good understanding of it.

    Vaporizers are definitely a great harm reduction strategy at worst.

    However, constant vapor around non smokers/Vapers can be obnoxious, distracting, and unpleasant.

    For these reasons, and the fact that some people are highly sensitive to propylene glycol, I have no problem with keeping Vaping to certain areas as smoking is.
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    The root problem causing our freedoms to be eroded is thus revealed. Keep your hands off the things I like but support government coercion to stop those I don't. I bet there are more people that find someone OCing a gun obnoxious, distracting, and unpleasant than vaping. Your nonchalant acceptance of draconian government restrictions on vaping is offensive.
    Apples and oranges. One cannot simply ignore vapor being inhaled into your lungs. If you want to do it, that's great but I choose not to and also don't think my son should have to breath in those chemicals in ANY amount. Just because you cannot see the vapor after the cloud dissipates does not mean the chems are no longer in the air. I couldn't count how many times someone vaping has blown the vapor cloud directly at my family. If it wasn't for the total disregard of these dumba$$es there would be no issue.

    The only way to make the connection you attempted to make would be to tell people to quit breathing when someone blows vapor towards you (I actually do hold my breath for a moment) or on the flip side, people throwing guns at anyone that is not open carrying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy1094 View Post
    Apples and oranges. One cannot simply ignore vapor being inhaled into your lungs. If you want to do it, that's great but I choose not to and also don't think my son should have to breath in those chemicals in ANY amount. Just because you cannot see the vapor after the cloud dissipates does not mean the chems are no longer in the air. I couldn't count how many times someone vaping has blown the vapor cloud directly at my family. If it wasn't for the total disregard of these dumba$$es there would be no issue.

    The only way to make the connection you attempted to make would be to tell people to quit breathing when someone blows vapor towards you (I actually do hold my breath for a moment) or on the flip side, people throwing guns at anyone that is not open carrying.
    +1

    Vaping is a lot less annoying and dangerous to bystanders than 2nd hand smoke from cigs. But that doesn't mean it doesn't present some legitimate level of annoyance or even risk. There is a material difference between the mere sight of a firearm in a holster, and having no practical choice but to inhale vapor with unknown levels of unknown chemicals.

    I have a few co-workers who dropped smoking in favor of vaping, and would grab a few vapes discretely in the office. It has never bothered me, partly because they were being polite and discrete. But I can see how it could be a real problem in areas like NPS visitor centers or concessionaires if the vapers were not very polite and careful.

    I have close family members who have quite smoking thanks to vaporizers. They are much healthier, smell better, and enjoy the taste of food more than they have in decades. I think vaporizers are great; FAR and away better than cigarettes. But they are still a delivery device for a highly addictive recreational drug, and they have some (limited) potential to impact non-users.

    A decent respect for the rights of others needs to go both ways and if either side gets too rude it might expect some unwanted rules to come down. A good lesson for those of us in the RKBA/OC community to remember.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 09-18-2015 at 11:25 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willy1094 View Post
    Apples and oranges. One cannot simply ignore vapor being inhaled into your lungs. If you want to do it, that's great but I choose not to and also don't think my son should have to breath in those chemicals in ANY amount. Just because you cannot see the vapor after the cloud dissipates does not mean the chems are no longer in the air. I couldn't count how many times someone vaping has blown the vapor cloud directly at my family. If it wasn't for the total disregard of these dumba$$es there would be no issue.

    The only way to make the connection you attempted to make would be to tell people to quit breathing when someone blows vapor towards you (I actually do hold my breath for a moment) or on the flip side, people throwing guns at anyone that is not open carrying.
    Alot of what you just described falls under manners. Those of us that actually have good/proper manners, we respect those around us. We blow our vapor away from others around us. I for example will blow my vapor up most of the time when around others. You are right to be upset if someone blows this stuff in your face or whatever. It's rude and disrespectful. I'm not going to just blow in someones face while not vaping, so why would I do the same thing while I am vaping? It's rude either way.

    But a little education for you... there are all of 4 basic "chemicals" or less in the liquid used for these items.

    E-liquid, e-fluid, or e-juice is the liquid that vaporizes when heated to a temperature of about 55 įC. There is a vast array of e-liquids available. The main ingredients are propylene glycol, glycerin, water, nicotine, and flavorings; and optionally, tobacco-derived nicotine. The liquid typically contains 95% propylene glycol and glycerin. The most regularly used base carrier chemical is propylene glycol with or without glycerin. E-liquid containing glycerin and water made without propylene glycol is also sold. The nicotine in e-liquid may be prepared using a United States Pharmacopeia-grade nicotine, a tobacco plant extract, tobacco dust or a synthetic nicotine. Most e-cigarette liquids contain nicotine, but the level of nicotine varies depending on user-preference and manufacturers. E-liquid without nicotine is also available. Although some e-juice is nicotine-free, surveys demonstrate that 97% of e-cigarette users use products that contain nicotine. A 2015 review suggests that 1% of users use liquid without nicotine.
    Propylene glycol, which is used in various edible items such as coffee-based drinks, liquid sweeteners, ice cream, whipped dairy products and soda.

    Prolonged contact with propylene glycol is essentially non-irritating to the skin.Undiluted propylene glycol is minimally irritating to the eye, producing slight transient conjunctivitis; the eye recovers after the exposure is removed. Exposure to mists may cause eye irritation, as well as upper respiratory tract irritation. Inhalation of propylene glycol vapors appears to present no significant hazard in ordinary applications. However, limited human experience indicates that inhalation of propylene glycol mists could be irritating to some individuals. It is therefore recommended that propylene glycol not be used in applications where inhalation exposure or human eye contact with the spray mists of these materials is likely, such as simulated fogs for theatrical productions, or antifreeze solutions for emergency eye wash stations.
    Vegetable glycerin is basically, a natural sugar and is actually used as a sweetener in food products as well as many medications. Vegetable glycerin is sweet-tasting and is non-toxic.

    Nicotine, is simply put, a stimulant not unlike caffeine. Sure, too much nicotine can kill you, but the same can be said for caffeine. Hell, you can actually kill yourself by drinking too much water.

    The final ingredient is flavoring, usually the same flavoring that goes into candy and food.

    There is alot of misinformation out there about "E-cigarettes". Those of us that have taken the time to actually educate ourselves know the truth. I suggest that others do as well or else you will be just like the antis regarding firearms.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    +1

    Vaping is a lot less annoying and dangerous to bystanders than 2nd hand smoke from cigs. But that doesn't mean it doesn't present some legitimate level of annoyance or even risk. There is a material difference between the mere sight of a firearm in a holster, and having no practical choice but to inhale vapor with unknown levels of unknown chemicals.

    I have a few co-workers who dropped smoking in favor of vaping, and would grab a few vapes discretely in the office. It has never bothered me, partly because they were being polite and discrete. But I can see how it could be a real problem in areas like NPS visitor centers or concessionaires if the vapers were not very polite and careful.

    I have close family members who have quite smoking thanks to vaporizers. They are much healthier, smell better, and enjoy the taste of food more than they have in decades. I think vaporizers are great; FAR and away better than cigarettes. But they are still a delivery device for a highly addictive recreational drug, and they have some (limited) potential to impact non-users.

    A decent respect for the rights of others needs to go both ways and if either side gets too rude it might expect some unwanted rules to come down. A good lesson for those of us in the RKBA/OC community to remember.

    Charles
    See what I stated above and that I agree with you on certain aspects. It is rude to just blow this stuff in someone's face. Regarding the level of nicotine in the liquid, it varies. Some people actually start with about 18mg/ml which is about the same amount that one would get from a normal cigarette. I for example use about 3mg/ml which is ALOT less. My "E-Cigarette" is like my all day coffee. I like a little nicotine which substitutes my caffeine.


    I am passionate about this product because I feel like it has given me back some years of my life. I tried every single method for quitting smoking after having been a smoker for over 10 years. I will never go back to smoking cigarettes. I enjoy vaping. I am more then happy to help current smokers, that want to quit, to start using E-Cigarettes as a method to quit cigarettes for the purposes of being healthier in life.
    Last edited by Grim_Night; 09-19-2015 at 12:09 AM.
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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Well, I guess I'm offensive now.

    Since when do we have a right to put various chemicals into the air, forcing others to inhale them?

    You are aware that propylene glycol causes adverse reactions in done people correct? Let's vaporize peanuts in public. It's my right! Some people have respiratory issues that can be inflamed by inhaling vapor and the like. Screw them right?

    Rights end at others noses. If we could guarantee that what we inhale wouldn't effect others, then I'd day Vape wherever. But we can't, and unfortunately many Vapers don't seem to get the concept of basic decency. In places where it's legal, many companies are banning them during work, because some would fog up the office.

    This really is nothing like open carry.

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    Well, I guess I'm offensive now.

    Since when do we have a right to put various chemicals into the air, forcing others to inhale them?

    You are aware that propylene glycol causes adverse reactions in done people correct? Let's vaporize peanuts in public. It's my right! Some people have respiratory issues that can be inflamed by inhaling vapor and the like. Screw them right?

    Rights end at others noses. If we could guarantee that what we inhale wouldn't effect others, then I'd day Vape wherever. But we can't, and unfortunately many Vapers don't seem to get the concept of basic decency. In places where it's legal, many companies are banning them during work, because some would fog up the office.

    This really is nothing like open carry.
    Banning something because it might cause someone harm is exactly like gun control. Someone MIGHT be hurt by a firearm, so lets ban them all! Someone MIGHT get sick from eating peanuts, so lets ban them! Banning something because someone MIGHT be offended is also exactly like gun control. Someone MIGHT be offended by someone else open carrying even if it is legal so lets ban open carry AND firearms. Someone MIGHT be offended by the sight or smell of an electronic cigarette so lets ban it!

    Cigarettes are well known and documented in being harmful to the user and those around the user, but they are perfectly legal.

    As an additional note, I make my own vape liquid and I use 100% Vegetable glycerin partly for the reason you just stated. Vegetable glycerin does NOT have "adverse reactions in some people".

    I'll be blunt. If I'm being polite and you are still offended, you are more then welcome to leave. This is JUST like open carry. If you are offended because I open carry, you are welcome to leave.
    Last edited by Grim_Night; 09-19-2015 at 06:00 AM.
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    heh heh heh my point is made. Hey it's cool to say "tough ****" to the progressive who claims to have emotional distress at the sight of a commoner carrying an firearm. But it's apples and oranges to compare that to compelling government coercion to stop vaping.

    I can remember years ago when I thought it was government's job to stop everything I didn't like and hurt/jail/kill those who wouldn't agree.
    What a vile hypocritical outlook I had.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim_Night View Post
    Banning something because it might cause someone harm is exactly like gun control. Someone MIGHT be hurt by a firearm, so lets ban them.

    I'll be blunt. If I'm being polite and you are still offended, you are more then welcome to leave. This is JUST like open carry. If you are offended because I open carry, you are welcome to leave.
    I said I'm offensive, not offended. Read please.

    I've been open carrying for seven years now, why would it offend me?

    You seem to have missed my point though. Open carrying does not force anyone to do anything. Vaping near them does. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

    In addition, you better start fighting all those smoking "bans" since you feel so strongly.

    Seriously though, this is no ban. It's merely enforcing rules of common decency, since so many ignore them because "it's just vapor"
    Last edited by thx997303; 09-19-2015 at 01:10 PM.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    I said I'm offensive, not offended. Read please.

    I've been open carrying for seven years now, why would it offend me?

    You seem to have missed my point though. Open carrying does not force anyone to do anything. Vaping near them does. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

    In addition, you better start fighting all those smoking "bans" since you feel so strongly.

    Seriously though, this is no ban. It's merely enforcing rules of common decency, since so many ignore them because "it's just vapor"
    Yeah I think we get it. Your rights are important. Others...meh.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  25. #25
    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    Well, I guess I'm offensive now.

    Since when do we have a right to put various chemicals into the air, forcing others to inhale them?

    You are aware that propylene glycol causes adverse reactions in done people correct? Let's vaporize peanuts in public. It's my right! Some people have respiratory issues that can be inflamed by inhaling vapor and the like. Screw them right?

    Rights end at others noses. If we could guarantee that what we inhale wouldn't effect others, then I'd day Vape wherever. But we can't, and unfortunately many Vapers don't seem to get the concept of basic decency. In places where it's legal, many companies are banning them during work, because some would fog up the office.

    This really is nothing like open carry.
    Have you ever passed gas in public?

    Just wondering.

    Sent from my Sony Xperia using Tapatalk 4

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