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    on threats and deadly force

    I am reading the page of the lewis county sheriff's office on deadly force, which says

    Q: What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?
    A: Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat

    at http://lewiscountywa.gov/information...f-deadly-force

    if and when a guy says, Your money or your life, wouldn't that justify the use of preemptive deadly force?

    what washington state court rulings or laws are there, if any, on this topic?

    thanks!
    Last edited by zaitz; 09-14-2015 at 03:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    I am reading the page of the lewis county sheriff's office on deadly force, which says

    Q: What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?
    A: Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat

    at http://lewiscountywa.gov/information...f-deadly-force

    if and when a guy says, Your money or your life, wouldn't that justify the use of preemptive deadly force?

    what washington state court rulings or laws are there, if any, on this topic?

    thanks!
    Here in Snohomish, their is this man who is a bit loopy and he is well known by the PD to go to random people's properties and just directly spy on them. In this case, he came to our apartment and told everyone he was going to kill them. My roommate contacted the PD and told us that he is known but they cannot do anything until he makes a move. At the time, the only firearm in our apartment was my rooommates R870 and he said it was completely fine to come down with shotgun in hand to talk to him as long as he didn't point it at him unless physical aggression was taken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    My understanding is WA is a de-facto Stand Your Ground state. Example: you're on a public road. Man comes at you with a punch. You dodge the attack and begin to back up. He comes at you again. You know you could retreat. You fire your weapon and hit him. He dies. According to the law, because you were legally allowed where you are and he used physical force, you can not be held for murder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    My understanding is WA is a de-facto Stand Your Ground state. Example: you're on a public road. Man comes at you with a punch. You dodge the attack and begin to back up. He comes at you again. You know you could retreat. You fire your weapon and hit him. He dies. According to the law, because you were legally allowed where you are and he used physical force, you can not be held for murder.
    Remember "Disparity of Force".
    "Disparity of Force is defined as a situation that any reasonable person would conclude places you at an overwhelming disadvantage in your effort to protect yourself against immediate and serious bodily injury.

    Here are some examples of Disparity of Force:

    Large man against small man.
    Able bodied man against disabled man.
    Man against woman.
    Two or more men against one man.
    Two or more juveniles against one man or one woman.
    Man or woman known to have training in the martial arts against untrained man or woman.
    Again, your adversaries (even in a disparity of force situation) must be demonstrating the ability, opportunity, and intent to inflict immediate and serious bodily injury to you or those around you in order to justify shooting."

    http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sig...rity-of-force/
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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Yep, WA is definitely a SYG type state, though Tyrant Sherry Appleton attempted to get rid of it by requiring a duty to retreat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    My understanding is WA is a de-facto Stand Your Ground state. Example: you're on a public road. Man comes at you with a punch. You dodge the attack and begin to back up. He comes at you again. You know you could retreat. You fire your weapon and hit him. He dies. According to the law, because you were legally allowed where you are and he used physical force, you can not be held for murder.
    A simple punch or even fist fight by its self does not warrant the use of deadly force. I am absolutely sure that If a 90 LB woman punched my 6-6 240 LB mug and I shot her that I would be prosecuted and rightly convicted of murder assuming I killed her if I shot her. I am equally sure that if a a 200 lb man punched me and absent any other circumstances I would be convicted of murder if I shot and killed him. Now if that person is armed with a club, knife, rock and they are not a six year old kid then that may justify the use of deadly force.

    No matter what one has to be in fear of great bodily harm or death to use deadly force lawfully and even then the legal test is would a reasonable man be in fear of great bodily harm or death in the same circumstances. A reasonable man would not be in fear of great bodily harm or death from a 90 lb woman punching him. A reasonable man may be in fear of great bodily harm if a 250 LB man was trying to punch him.
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    I know of several cases that single punch lead to death or great bodily harm.

    Here's a interesting read on the subject.

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2014/12...al-deadly.html

    If you watch television and the movies, you might get the impression that a punch to the head is no big deal. That is not true. A punch to the head is a very serious attack. It can disable. It can maim. It can kill. The head is a vulnerable target, which is why an attacker aims for it. I first became aware of the deadly potential of one punch to the head in the 1970's, from a long forgotten news story. Later, the son of a close friend killed a man with one punch. He was eventually found not guilty of manslaughter, but only after a long and expensive legal fight.

    Rest of the story at the link

    some more related articles

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2015/04...isticuffs.html

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2014/12...-homicide.html

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2015/01...ly-threat.html
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 09-25-2015 at 06:11 AM.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    i operate under the singular auspice of:
    1. how did someone get close enough to even begin to effect any type of attack on my tender body?
    2. now that someone is close enough effecting an attack, plan 'B' takes effect ~ upon the end of which there are only two outcomes, neither of which am i expecting any judicial repercussions!

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 09-25-2015 at 08:52 AM.
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    One of the workers in a small market hit a man who was causing a ruckus in the store. He connected with his temple, and he dropped like a bag of potatoes, and went into convulsions. They had to drain blood from his skull to keep the idiot alive.

    Hands are very deadly! And if I am openly armed I have every reason to believe my weapon will be taken and used against me.

    I hit a convicted felon with a a gun in a hospital who was trying to get his girlfriend out of the nut ward. They took him to the emergency room with blood coming from his ear. Lucky punch, but I was able to disarm him without endangering the staff with gun fire.

    I doubt I could hit like that today, with my health any attack is life threatening.
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    I also call BS on this notion that a single punch can't be deadly or cause great bodily harm.

    People die from single punches all the time. Many stories have been linked to above and there are thousands more on the internet.

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    Use of force in defense of persons.

    563.031. 1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person, unless:

    http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/statht...1.html?&me=563


    Use of physical force in defense of property.

    563.041. 1. A person may, subject to the limitations of subsection 2, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes it necessary to prevent what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such person of stealing, property damage or tampering in any degree.

    http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/statht...1.html?&me=563


    Until December 31, 2016--Use of force by persons with responsibility for care, discipline or safety of others.

    563.061. 1. The use of physical force by an actor upon another person is justifiable when the actor is a parent, guardian or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a minor or an incompetent person or when the actor is a teacher or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a minor for a special purpose; and

    http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/statht...2.html?&me=563


    Beginning January 1, 2017--Use of force by persons with responsibility for care, discipline or safety of others.

    563.061. 1. The use of physical force by an actor upon another person is justifiable when the actor is a parent, guardian or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a minor or an incompetent person or when the actor is a teacher or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a minor for a special purpose; and

    http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/statht...1.html?&me=563
    Statues for Missouri. Cops tend to get it right the first time when they are confronted with such a situation. The cops in the first GZ incident got it right and were then summarily thrown under the bus.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    I also call BS on this notion that a single punch can't be deadly or cause great bodily harm.

    People die from single punches all the time. Many stories have been linked to above and there are thousands more on the internet.
    Smith says back on August 3rd, James Aytch was assaulted at a home on Moye Lane outside of Scuffleton. The sheriff says Exum is accused of hitting Aytch in the head with his fist, causing him to collapse and become unresponsive.

    http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/M...321565911.html
    The most recent incident.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The most recent incident.
    https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...ch+to+the+head

    It may not be the impact of fist to head, but the impact of head to concrete after the impact of fist to head.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Statues for Missouri. Cops tend to get it right the first time when they are confronted with such a situation. The cops in the first GZ incident got it right and were then summarily thrown under the bus.
    That's great for Missouri... This is the Washington state subforums. Those laws mean nothing here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim_Night View Post
    That's great for Missouri... This is the Washington state subforums. Those laws mean nothing here.
    It appears that WA has no such language in their codes if I interpret your response correctly.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    It appears that WA has no such language in their codes if I interpret your response correctly.
    That is not what I stated or why I stated it and you know it. I'm getting tired of people interjecting the laws that they know from other states into ours. That is a constant problem. We have people from one state that know the laws that apply there and then they move and try to bring their laws with them. Someone from California will bring their thoughts and ideas on what laws apply in California and try to impose those thoughts and ideas on us here in Washington. And those of us in Washington don't want those laws here. If you are in Missouri, how would you like it if someone showed up in the Missouri state subforums and started preaching about laws in California, New York, New Jersey, Maryland or some other place like that and started talking about how much better it would be if the laws from those states applied in Missouri?

    Back on topic...

    RCW 9A.16.050
    Homicide By other person When justifiable.

    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

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    I know a punch to the head can kill. All I am saying is that if someone takes a swing at me and a dodge it and then continue to come at me, they will get a .45 and I will deal with it in court.

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    But does this apply to everybody? You can use deadly force IF your life is in immediate danger. However this mans life in Michigan was certainly under threat by the police for nothing more than OCing. Legally where would he stand in WA if he had decided to shoot?


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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    But does this apply to everybody? You can use deadly force IF your life is in immediate danger. However this mans life in Michigan was certainly under threat by the police for nothing more than OCing. Legally where would he stand in WA if he had decided to shoot?


    https://youtu.be/wLmrTENZwDA?t=2m23s
    In that case, has their even been a case in WA were a police officer went on the offensive against a citizen and the citizen fired back and did not get charged for assault?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    In that case, has their even been a case in WA were a police officer went on the offensive against a citizen and the citizen fired back and did not get charged for assault?
    Some animals are more equal.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    SNIP I am reading the page of the lewis county sheriff's office on deadly force, which says

    Q: What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?
    A: Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat

    at http://lewiscountywa.gov/information...f-deadly-force
    Sooo, now the Lewis Co. Sheriff's office is giving legal advice? Interpreting the law? Verrry interesting.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    ...if and when a guy says, Your money or your life, wouldn't that justify the use of preemptive deadly force?...
    It's hard to imagine someone saying that without displaying some means to carry out the threat.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    In that case, has their even been a case in WA were a police officer went on the offensive against a citizen and the citizen fired back and did not get charged for assault?
    I don't know but the officer in the video made a clear and obvious threat to kill, which in my mind is more than enough reason to draw and fire a weapon. The uniform is irrelevant.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

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    The sheriff in the OP cracks me up.

    First tells others they must gain knowledge and no the law and then almost immediately says something wrong. Firearms are not prohibited in all government buildings.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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