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Thread: The element/advantage of surprise?

  1. #1
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    The element/advantage of surprise?

    You know, that mythical thing that concealed carry proponents/anti open carry people use to justify why concealed is better than open carry.

    If nobody is open carry, they just pick any sheep at random. The concealed carrier was lucky to pull back his clothing, draw his firearm and get 3 shots off on target without getting shot himself.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...mer-gets-shot/
    Hoka hey

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    Elderly customer "must have been a pretty good shot".

    Sure, if he was aiming for two arms and a leg......

    Would be interesting to know more of the story.

    Was the elderly customer going to allow him to freely leave, if he had not pointed the gun at him? I probably would, I'm not the bank's armed guard.

    We're there even any bullets in the bad guy's gun? Was it real?

    Antis don't seem to be able to view themselves as the victim. The typical scenario is a bank robbery, the OC guy gets shot first. They seem to mostly see themselves coming to the rescue of someone else who IS the victim. I could see this argued both ways pro CC and OC, but think we don't have enough intel to real determine much. Wish he would have been a better shot than "pretty good".
    Last edited by Wstar425; 09-23-2015 at 05:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    Elderly customer "must have been a pretty good shot".

    Sure, if he was aiming for two arms and a leg......
    Well, he does seem to be a better shot that what is shown by videos and reports of some/many of NY's finest! BG only one shot, no reports of "wayward" shots, etc


    Clarification query---- Since when is a 63 year old Male "ELDERLY"?
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 09-23-2015 at 05:01 PM.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Food for thought....

    Without having been there.... but knowing that an unfolding life threatening situation can be a very dynamic and fluid thing completely different from, and having no comparison to, standing still in a perfect stance carefully squeezing off controlled shots at a non moving target at the range......

    Folks often critique the accuracy of shots fired, usually in a negative way, without considering that there is no guarantee the bad guy just stood still and let himself be shot. Perhaps the bad guy was on the move while the shots were being fired by the 63 year old good guy. Oh... and there is no guarantee the 63 year old good guy just stood still while firing.

    It is quite possible both the bad guy and the 63 year old good guy were moving at the time the shots were fired greatly increasing the difficulty of making good COM hits.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 09-24-2015 at 07:12 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    A matter of degree

    Have to bet that the BG was "surprised."

    There's the story of two bulls on a hilltop looking down on a herd of cows.

    The young bull says, "Let's run down there and surprise one."

    Old bull replies, "Let's walk down there and surprise them all."
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-23-2015 at 06:49 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The antis are always asking "Why didn't you just shoot him in the arm, or the leg?"

    So the bank customer does.

    And now everybody is jumping up and down about what a lousy shot he is?

    There just aint no pleasing some folks.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Have to bet that the BG was "surprised."

    There's the story of two bulls on a hilltop looking down on a herd of cows.

    The young bull says, "Let's run down there and surprise one."

    Old bull replies, "Let's walk down there and surprise them all."
    I know this is a family forum,, but, that is not how that joke goes!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The antis are always asking "Why didn't you just shoot him in the arm, or the leg?"

    So the bank customer does.

    And now everybody is jumping up and down about what a lousy shot he is?

    There just aint no pleasing some folks.

    stay safe.
    I thought he did a great job. 3 shots on target and no reports of collateral damage. Better than NYPD!
    Hoka hey

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    Quote Originally Posted by FallonJeeper View Post
    I thought he did a great job. 3 shots on target and no reports of collateral damage. Better than NYPD!
    See post 3 above. LOL
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 09-24-2015 at 08:52 PM.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  10. #10
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    Let's see, BG threatens good guy, good guy and all innocents escape with no physical harm while the BG picks up three new holes in his body and gets arrested. To top it all off, good guy doesn't even have to live with the knowledge that he took a human life.

    Pretty hard to find anything at all wrong in this outcome short of some serious Monday morning quarterbacking about what might have been different in a perfect world.

    Kudos to the good guy.

    As reported (for what that is worth) it wasn't until he was threatened that he went for his gun. Good move. I'm not going to risk my life, nor be responsible for taking another life over federally insured bank money. But if the BG threatens me, self-defense is required.

    That all said, I'm with others who prefer not to ever need the element of surprise. Maybe BG walks in, sees an OC gun and immediately opens fire or gets the drop and disarms. Or, just as likely, if he sees the OC gun, he decides today is a bad day for an unauthorized withdrawal, realizes he forget his checkbook in the car, and doesn't come back in. Nobody really notices, and we never hear about what didn't happen.

    Or, as happened here, BG doesn't see CC gun, does his thing, get's surprised and thankfully the good guy is fast enough and good enough to defend himself despite the advantages of the BG already having his gun in hand.

    Happy outcome for all involved except the BG.

    Charles
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  11. #11
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    I don't understand why anyone would want to have to surprise a would-be attacker. "Look-y here Mr. BG! Surprise, I'm armed."

    Clearly the better tactical advantage is for a potential attacker to see your clearly displayed properly holstered firearm and for him to then make an informed decision to not start anything in the first place.

    As the proverb says, "The best defense is a good offense."
    Be active.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberty-or-Death View Post
    I don't understand why anyone would want to have to surprise a would-be attacker. "Look-y here Mr. BG! Surprise, I'm armed."

    Clearly the better tactical advantage is for a potential attacker to see your clearly displayed properly holstered firearm and for him to then make an informed decision to not start anything in the first place.

    As the proverb says, "The best defense is a good offense."
    The best fight is one not fought, one avoided.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Well,,,

    Lots of thoughts have gone into the CC Surprise theory...
    I prefer the OC,,, warning theory..
    But,, If you prefer the CC Surprise way,,,, Then,,,
    When,, you are attacked,, and IF you get a Chance to draw,,,
    Don't Yell, SURPRISE!!!
    Don't stand there, aiming your SURPRISE at your attacker...
    This is the time to draw and FIRE!!!
    Immediately!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Always a group of people will stand around and say what they'd do, (arm chair quarterbacks), have you ever been in a real close up and personal, force of violence, me shoot at you, you shoot at me, 3 or 4 seconds of sheer terror. Then you do not know.( and yes I have more than once)

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskycut View Post
    Always a group of people will stand around and say what they'd do, (arm chair quarterbacks), have you ever been in a real close up and personal, force of violence, me shoot at you, you shoot at me, 3 or 4 seconds of sheer terror. Then you do not know.( and yes I have more than once)
    Arm chair quarterbacking helps to determine how one will react to such situations - jus' sayin'.

    Evaluate and plan ahead.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Arm chair quarterbacking helps to determine how one will react to such situations - jus' sayin'.

    Evaluate and plan ahead.
    Arm chair/Monday morning quarterbacking trades what someone actually did for what you, with all the time and adult beverages available, would like to think you would have done/what the other guy should have done/what could have happened differently.

    Breaking down what actually took place to see how and why things went they way they did and then running scenarios (either in your head or in the shoot house) to find out if those scenarios will actually end in a better outcome is part of training.

    In this conversation we need to go back to the source. Interviews with criminals who are locked up are not known for being highly reliable but the consensus does seem to be they would rather take their chances that you are not armed than to go up against someone they know is armed. The other thing is understanding under what circumstances they are more likely to shoot first and if your habits and behavior put you in those arenas.

    Not going stupid places with stupid people and doing stupid things works pretty well in reducing the odds of ever having to find out if you are fast enough.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  17. #17
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Saying I have done this and you havent so you can't know or talk about it is disingenuous.

    Not everyone reacts the same....Grape is right the discussion is what will help prepare.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Arm chair/Monday morning quarterbacking trades what someone actually did for what you, with all the time and adult beverages available, would like to think you would have done/what the other guy should have done/what could have happened differently.

    Breaking down what actually took place to see how and why things went they way they did and then running scenarios (either in your head or in the shoot house) to find out if those scenarios will actually end in a better outcome is part of training.

    In this conversation we need to go back to the source. Interviews with criminals who are locked up are not known for being highly reliable but the consensus does seem to be they would rather take their chances that you are not armed than to go up against someone they know is armed. The other thing is understanding under what circumstances they are more likely to shoot first and if your habits and behavior put you in those arenas.

    Not going stupid places with stupid people and doing stupid things works pretty well in reducing the odds of ever having to find out if you are fast enough.

    stay safe.
    my only caveat, for the most part, when criminals are interviewed while incarcerated they are 'rational' (substance free or on appropriate psychometric meds), if you will, and while on the streets their rationality is questionable at best, depending on their peer hype, or substance(s) they are on which will throw their reality of danger or death to the winds while contemplating or committing a crime against a citizen(s).

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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskycut View Post
    Always a group of people will stand around and say what they'd do, (arm chair quarterbacks), have you ever been in a real close up and personal, force of violence, me shoot at you, you shoot at me, 3 or 4 seconds of sheer terror. Then you do not know.( and yes I have more than once)
    forum

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    1. a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

    You can participate or not. Your choice.

  20. #20
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I do not need to be shot at to know that I do not desire to be shot at. But, the training part should come in handy if I can not avoid getting shot at. Fortunately, my normal circle of friends and travel minimizes the opportunities to employ my training.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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