This is what can happen when you're UNarmed

Difdi · Sep 30, 2015

OC Freedom said:
I always carried at work. A Ruger LCP concealed with an extra mag is easy to keep concealed during work unless you are a life guard or something that requires minimal clothing (don't ask don't tell policy on that one). My employer did not allow firearms, well to bad, I don't care what they like or not.

The worst that happens if you get caught with the gun is you get fired. What's the worst that can happen if you really need that gun and don't have it?

Seems like the wise choice to me.

Ezek · Sep 30, 2015

tcbrad98 said:
So the basic consensus is 'be out for just yourself and loved ones, let the rest of humanity be damned'? When did we become to scared to stand up for what is right. I'm not saying that the OP should have engaged directly, but now we are too afraid to even call the police? How is head down, just shuffle on any better than the people that just record something bad happening when they could help?

Everyone has to do what they feel is right for them, but...

you know, it could be argued that, in a way he is standing up for what's right by telling the guy getting a whoopin to take care of his own security, and well being, since it is his own responsibility, not the OP's or anyone elses.

I carry for me and my family only, had I saw this, and had a cell phone, I would've notified local PD, but not intervened, although I do not generally fear people cause of my physical capabilities and attributes. but 2 on one is bad odds in any circumstance. and with a car parked funny, who knows if there is any backup for the guys whoopin on the victim??

willy1094 · Sep 30, 2015

skidmark said:
Most smart phones, including the flip style, have an "EMERGENCY" button that dials 911. Most (we know the stories of when they do not) PDs follow up on 911 calls when the caller does not respond to the dispatcher. E911 GPS location has been mandatory for years. My guess is that a significant number of people are not aware of that feature on their phone.

stay safe.

I just wanted to take a moment to clarify on these statements (This applies to cellphones, not landlines). Many agencies are not staffed enough to follow up on hangups from cell phones. If the dispatcher hears something in the background that would indicate a problem, they will follow up. Otherwise, the massive number of cellphones hangups make it prohibitive to follow up on all of them. Massive is no exaggeration. SOME agencies are large enough that they have a dedicated person to do these followups. This number of hangups have grown now that most smart phones will call 911 from the lock screen. You used to be able to lock your phone to prevent all dial outs. The other issue is now many people allow a child to play with a charged cell phone. ALL cell phones MUST be able to dial 911, even if it is deactivated.

The other point is that while most cell companies are technically Phase 2 compliant (GPS location), it is no where near perfect. Most cell phones report as Phase 1 (shows the cell tower the phone hit) initially and have to be updated to get the phone to report as Phase 2. Depending on how quickly the caller disconnects, Phase 1 may be all the dispatcher gets. Even Phase 2 is not that exact. It is continually improving, but not accurate enough to bet your life on it.

At the very least, if you or someone else needs help, give your location at least twice before hanging up and indicate what is going on. That is ONLY if you are UNABLE to remain on the phone. Just my little PSA because I see way too much misinformation on the subject in media, and even from the Police/Fire departments. I think it all stems from wanting systems to look better than they are in some cases. In others, the people reporting on how the system works don't actually have true working knowledge of the system. They know what is is supposed to do as opposed to real world results.

zaitz · Oct 3, 2015

acmariner99 said:
+1 - my sentiments exactly skid. I would also like to know how I could have "helped." Use the exact same variables - I have a phone (with camera) and nothing else. No gun or other defense tool. Bear in mind the act of pulling out my phone elicited a response from the BG. Pray tell - I am curious!

You may wish to carry both a loud whistle and pepper spray. . . . though I don't remember if your employer has some policy against pepper spray. You might have had the whistle on a lamphere or whatever it is that goes around your neck . . . and then, when witnessing the violence, turn away slightly so as to obscure the view of the evil-doers of you and blow the whistle loudly before the evil-doer gets to making his threats against you.

There are whistles for sale from amazon that supposedly can be heard from quite a distance . . . and any other bystanders and/or police might come running or driving by when they hear the whistle.

Since I have been threatened repeatedly and have not taken the time and trouble to carry firearms . . . and since most of the threats and assaults against me were made while I was walking at Greenlake in minimal clothing and it might be counterproductive for me personally to carry a firearm in the circumstances in which some of the public has doubts about my mental stablity anyway, I do routinely carry pepper spray and I do at times while clothed wear an empty holster, but not carrying.

However, I can mention that there are times in which I am not very inclined to back down, flee or change my behavior as a result of being threatened . . .

What would I have done if a large black man who was engaging in violence or threats then began to threaten me for pulling out a cell phone and calling 911?
I don't know . . . but Martin Luther had a small section of his writings on the subject of why Christians should bear and use arms . . . and the reason he gave is that it is for the benefit of society . . .

Would I risk my life or well-being to make a call to 911 while witnessing violence? It is the kind of thing I might do, at least at times, knowing that I might help take out of circulation a guy bent on violence . . .

Where I am from, we will jump on a evil-doing shooter . . . and let God figure things out and straighten things out . . . At least some Christians believe that God has the will and power to make things up to those who suffer wrongly while doing good such as stopping a shooter or stopping an evil-doer engaged in violence . . .

Of course, there is the question of prudence, and I don't know all the answers and I don't even claim to know the answers for others . . . It is simply that, as a result of my spiritual background, beliefs and inclination, I'd put myself in front of some evil-doing shooters if it seemed as if good might result from it. . . and let God figure out how to straighten things out if I am dead before he might have been thinking otherwise.

golddigger14s · Oct 4, 2015

zaitz said:
Since I have been threatened repeatedly and have not taken the time and trouble to carry firearms . . . and since most of the threats and assaults against me were made while I was walking at Greenlake in minimal clothing and it might be counterproductive for me personally to carry a firearm in the circumstances in which some of the public has doubts about my mental stablity anyway, I do routinely carry pepper spray and I do at times while clothed wear an empty holster, but not carrying.

If your safety is not important to you, then I understand not taking the "time or trouble" to provide for your safety. I know, just too inconvenient. Just keep blindly going into situations where your ability to defend yourself is minimal. I watch the 5 pm news, and from what you said I'm sure to see a story about your early demise. RIP in advance.
Having fire extinguishers, and smoke alarms in my house were pretty inconvenient too.

Boomboy007 · Oct 4, 2015

I believe that many people's experience would have been a bit different. Many also work in a "gun free" environment. That has not prevented those individuals from pocket carrying a snubby every day they are there. Thus, they would NOT have been unarmed. They would have taken their phone and made the call, because in this free country, a man or woman may call whomever they want, whenever they want. If they are not going to be dissuaded by an LEO, they certainly are not going to be cowed by a two bit thug.

Now, were that scumbag to advance toward an individual in a hostile manner, then an individual would have every right to self defense. The onus is on the thug not to attempt violence, not on the victim to appease the thug.

Not me, of course, as I am an avowed pacifist, and the sight of an evil firearm gives me the runs.

Firearms Iinstuctor · Oct 4, 2015

zaitz said:
You may wish to carry both a loud whistle and pepper spray. . . . though I don't remember if your employer has some policy against pepper spray. You might have had the whistle on a lamphere or whatever it is that goes around your neck . . . and then, when witnessing the violence, turn away slightly so as to obscure the view of the evil-doers of you and blow the whistle loudly before the evil-doer gets to making his threats against you.

There are whistles for sale from amazon that supposedly can be heard from quite a distance . . . and any other bystanders and/or police might come running or driving by when they hear the whistle.

Since I have been threatened repeatedly and have not taken the time and trouble to carry firearms . . . and since most of the threats and assaults against me were made while I was walking at Greenlake in minimal clothing and it might be counterproductive for me personally to carry a firearm in the circumstances in which some of the public has doubts about my mental stablity anyway, I do routinely carry pepper spray and I do at times while clothed wear an empty holster, but not carrying.

However, I can mention that there are times in which I am not very inclined to back down, flee or change my behavior as a result of being threatened . . .

What would I have done if a large black man who was engaging in violence or threats then began to threaten me for pulling out a cell phone and calling 911?
I don't know . . . but Martin Luther had a small section of his writings on the subject of why Christians should bear and use arms . . . and the reason he gave is that it is for the benefit of society . . .

Would I risk my life or well-being to make a call to 911 while witnessing violence? It is the kind of thing I might do, at least at times, knowing that I might help take out of circulation a guy bent on violence . . .

Where I am from, we will jump on a evil-doing shooter . . . and let God figure things out and straighten things out . . . At least some Christians believe that God has the will and power to make things up to those who suffer wrongly while doing good such as stopping a shooter or stopping an evil-doer engaged in violence . . .

Of course, there is the question of prudence, and I don't know all the answers and I don't even claim to know the answers for others . . . It is simply that, as a result of my spiritual background, beliefs and inclination, I'd put myself in front of some evil-doing shooters if it seemed as if good might result from it. . . and let God figure out how to straighten things out if I am dead before he might have been thinking otherwise.

Wow

Firearms Iinstuctor · Oct 4, 2015

zaitz said:
You may wish to carry both a loud whistle and pepper spray. . . . though I don't remember if your employer has some policy against pepper spray. You might have had the whistle on a lamphere or whatever it is that goes around your neck . . . and then, when witnessing the violence, turn away slightly so as to obscure the view of the evil-doers of you and blow the whistle loudly before the evil-doer gets to making his threats against you.

There are whistles for sale from amazon that supposedly can be heard from quite a distance . . . and any other bystanders and/or police might come running or driving by when they hear the whistle.

Since I have been threatened repeatedly and have not taken the time and trouble to carry firearms . . . and since most of the threats and assaults against me were made while I was walking at Greenlake in minimal clothing and it might be counterproductive for me personally to carry a firearm in the circumstances in which some of the public has doubts about my mental stablity anyway, I do routinely carry pepper spray and I do at times while clothed wear an empty holster, but not carrying.

However, I can mention that there are times in which I am not very inclined to back down, flee or change my behavior as a result of being threatened . . .

What would I have done if a large black man who was engaging in violence or threats then began to threaten me for pulling out a cell phone and calling 911?
I don't know . . . but Martin Luther had a small section of his writings on the subject of why Christians should bear and use arms . . . and the reason he gave is that it is for the benefit of society . . .

Would I risk my life or well-being to make a call to 911 while witnessing violence? It is the kind of thing I might do, at least at times, knowing that I might help take out of circulation a guy bent on violence . . .

Where I am from, we will jump on a evil-doing shooter . . . and let God figure things out and straighten things out . . . At least some Christians believe that God has the will and power to make things up to those who suffer wrongly while doing good such as stopping a shooter or stopping an evil-doer engaged in violence . . .

Of course, there is the question of prudence, and I don't know all the answers and I don't even claim to know the answers for others . . . It is simply that, as a result of my spiritual background, beliefs and inclination, I'd put myself in front of some evil-doing shooters if it seemed as if good might result from it. . . and let God figure out how to straighten things out if I am dead before he might have been thinking otherwise.

Wow

If you act like a squirrel in the middle of the road one tends to get run over.

zaitz · Oct 4, 2015

Firearms Iinstuctor said:
Wow

If you act like a squirrel in the middle of the road one tends to get run over.

Chris Mintz "tried to protect some people," his aunt Sheila Brown told NBC News in a telephone interview. "We were told he did heroic things to protect some people."

She said that Mintz was shot seven times and had been in surgery since the shooting that left 10 dead, including the gunman.

God help Mintz . . .

acmariner99 · Oct 5, 2015

zaitz said:
You may wish to carry both a loud whistle and pepper spray. . . . though I don't remember if your employer has some policy against pepper spray. You might have had the whistle on a lamphere or whatever it is that goes around your neck . . . and then, when witnessing the violence, turn away slightly so as to obscure the view of the evil-doers of you and blow the whistle loudly before the evil-doer gets to making his threats against you.

There are whistles for sale from amazon that supposedly can be heard from quite a distance . . . and any other bystanders and/or police might come running or driving by when they hear the whistle.

Since I have been threatened repeatedly and have not taken the time and trouble to carry firearms . . . and since most of the threats and assaults against me were made while I was walking at Greenlake in minimal clothing and it might be counterproductive for me personally to carry a firearm in the circumstances in which some of the public has doubts about my mental stablity anyway, I do routinely carry pepper spray and I do at times while clothed wear an empty holster, but not carrying.

However, I can mention that there are times in which I am not very inclined to back down, flee or change my behavior as a result of being threatened . . .

What would I have done if a large black man who was engaging in violence or threats then began to threaten me for pulling out a cell phone and calling 911?
I don't know . . . but Martin Luther had a small section of his writings on the subject of why Christians should bear and use arms . . . and the reason he gave is that it is for the benefit of society . . .

Would I risk my life or well-being to make a call to 911 while witnessing violence? It is the kind of thing I might do, at least at times, knowing that I might help take out of circulation a guy bent on violence . . .

Where I am from, we will jump on a evil-doing shooter . . . and let God figure things out and straighten things out . . . At least some Christians believe that God has the will and power to make things up to those who suffer wrongly while doing good such as stopping a shooter or stopping an evil-doer engaged in violence . . .

Of course, there is the question of prudence, and I don't know all the answers and I don't even claim to know the answers for others . . . It is simply that, as a result of my spiritual background, beliefs and inclination, I'd put myself in front of some evil-doing shooters if it seemed as if good might result from it. . . and let God figure out how to straighten things out if I am dead before he might have been thinking otherwise.

Um ... what? You've been threatened repeatedly yet do not take it upon yourself to be more proactive in your own defense? A paragraph or two later you also say that you'd be willing to jump in front of an evil doer and let God sort it out? Load of good that does if you're defenseless and leave loved ones behind if you wind up dead. If you feel 'called' to act, good on you mate. I don't care what you believe, once you're dead, you're dead. My only job is keeping my family safe, getting home every night, and putting food on the table. My actions in defense reflect that attitude.

solus · Oct 5, 2015

ac, et al., uh the comment about he states the public questions his mental stability might be a small clue why he doesn't have a firearm 'sides from his last post it seems his deity will provide necessary oversight especially since, again by his own volition, he states: "...in minimal clothing...." except for the empty holster?

nawllll, this one i am walking slowly away from...

ipse

skidmark · Oct 5, 2015

solus said:
ac, et al., uh the comment about he states the public questions his mental stability might be a small clue why he doesn't have a firearm 'sides from his last post it seems his deity will provide necessary oversight especially since, again by his own volition, he states: "...in minimal clothing...." except for the empty holster?

nawllll, this one i am [strike]walking[/strike] backing slowly away from...

ipse

FIFY.

stay safe.

sudden valley gunner · Oct 6, 2015

solus said:
ac, et al., uh the comment about he states the public questions his mental stability might be a small clue why he doesn't have a firearm 'sides from his last post it seems his deity will provide necessary oversight especially since, again by his own volition, he states: "...in minimal clothing...." except for the empty holster?

nawllll, this one i am walking slowly away from...

ipse

Deities are extremely unreliable. In fact they often seem to be jerks....

Boomboy007 · Oct 6, 2015

sudden valley gunner said:
Deities are extremely unreliable. In fact they often seem to be jerks....

I have found Kali to be a very consistent and reliable deity. The jerk part, though.....

Dario · Oct 6, 2015

zaitz said:
Since I have been threatened repeatedly and have not taken the time and trouble to carry firearms . . . and since most of the threats and assaults against me were made while I was walking at Greenlake in minimal clothing and it might be counterproductive for me personally to carry a firearm in the circumstances in which some of the public has doubts about my mental stablity anyway, I do routinely carry pepper spray and I do at times while clothed wear an empty holster, but not carrying.

sudden valley gunner · Oct 7, 2015

Boomboy007 said:
I have found Kali to be a very consistent and reliable deity. The jerk part, though.....

Odin did get rid of the Ice Giants.

solus · Oct 7, 2015

sudden valley gunner said:
Odin did get rid of the Ice Giants.

Lordy...all i got is just Lordy...

ipse

Nang pa · Oct 7, 2015

acmariner99 said:
I got lucky this morning. As I am walking to the bus stop on the way to work (one car family and my employer prohibits firearms on the property, let alone in a backpack) I see two black guys beating up another black guy on the other end of the parking lot against a concrete wall; I saw a full body slam even and one guy was egging the other guy on. I keep walking on the sidewalk and I reach into my pocket to grab my phone so I can call the police. The 'egger' sees me with my phone in hand and waves me to keep moving and shouts "keep movin bro, just keep movin." Defenseless and with no reliable means of escape, I pick up my pace to a jog, put my phone back in my pocket, and leave. My stop wasn't far so I simply kept myself out of sight. As the bus pulls up, all three of these people move onto the sidewalk with one smaller black guy clearly trying to get away from the other two. He wants to get on the bus (I think) and the others won't let him. (I see this last part as I find a seat and the bus moves away.)

I took the action I did for the simple reason that calling the police (and the response time required) would've put a big target on my chest.

I can't afford to stand on principle regarding my employer so I follow the rules and Washington doesn't have a parking lot storage law - not that it would've mattered as I was on foot.

Even if I was armed, I may have done the exact same thing. I may have called the cops once I was out of their line of sight, but I didn't want to put myself in a position where my gun may have needed to be used and I don't see myself as ultimately responsible for what happens to others.

Still - it was rather unnerving not having the means to protect myself had things gone differently.

It doesn't sound like lethal force would have been justified in that incident anyway. A Taser would be a fine investment, I'm looking at the Taser X26c myself.

Nang pa · Oct 7, 2015

skidmark said:
Carrying may not be the best answer for the OP or for the guy getting beaten up.

For the OP - suppose he had managed to stop the beating. Then what? What's his obligation to the victim beyond that point? How does he safely withdraw if he has to wait for the bus?

For the victim - something tells me that he might not have been a completely innocent party. I get the strong odor of lifestyle choices coming home to roost.

Which brings me back to the OP - was the desire to intervene a knee-jerk response or had you covered some of the questions I raised?

Comments are welcome - with the exception of "we are sheepdogs". It may be different for you but I don't carry in order to protect the rest of the world from the evil that's out there.

stay safe.

I confess, I am not a sheepdog. I like to help and I like having options available, but I forgot my cape at the cleaner.

Nang pa · Oct 7, 2015

DeSchaine said:
In a situation like that, I'd use my body camera. The same stuff we use to record our interactions with LEO's and keep them honest can be used to help them in a situation like this. If you have one, anyways. I have mine on me all the time, even if I'm not carrying.

What sort of camera do you have?

This is what can happen when you're UNarmed

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