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Thread: Iowa OC and HOA's

  1. #1
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    Iowa OC and HOA's

    Iowa is OC provided you have a valid Iowa CCW- I rent a townhouse with a homeowners assoc and PITA neighbors. I go to my mailbox or car and have my Kimber on me, always holstered. The landlord and property manager INSISTED I show my CCW to THEM! They are not LEO and INHO have NO LEGAL right to veiw my CCW- of course you cant get any of these local gun groups to give you a straight answer ( though they want your donations) or attorneys either- and ill pay a billable hour! Im legal in the Staes eyes- so where does it say I have to prove that to you? go call the cops- im sure theyll tell you or maybe that CCW info is PRIVATE like HIPPA law?- anyonelse go through this nonsense?

    thanx

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    You have a landlord, an HOA and neighbors. The neighbors are likely a non-issue legally. The HOA likely has a restrictive covenant and a lawyer. YOU have a contract with your landlord.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    welcome & thanks for OC'g in IA...

    first the normal caveat...INAL and you get what you paid for...

    1. i have dealt w/HOAs numerous times and i have found once they get a burr under their saddle about something they can be extremely difficult to live with as they see no problem spending you and your neighbour's HOA dues on their associate HOA attorney being confrontational with you. One association i was involved with went so far as to secretly add a clause to the conventions to pursue me. only thing that saved me was i had a copy of the olde documentation, they on the other hand could not produce the initiation of or approval of documentation leading to the instituted convention changes they were pursuing me over. magistrate laughed at them, made them pay my attorney, and then threw them out of his chambers telling them they were on notice to not try it again or they would be held severely accountable.

    2. since you rent, check your lease and then contact the local state/community renters association and ask for assistance. they may have insight on the association and can advise you accordingly.

    i feel you will find you must either spend $$$ or capitulate to their power play.

    a final note... i am afraid you will discern the one stirring the pot is the rental mgmt mgr who is on a significant power trip. try to ascertain who is the actual owner and send a letter to them appealing for relief of this perceived form of harassment as you like living there.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 09-30-2015 at 10:49 AM.
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    Ask those fellas over in the IA sub forum.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    HOA's.. a pain in the butt, it's like a union for your neighbors to force you to give in to their whims.

    why I will never buy a house in an HOA, I enjoy free choice too much.

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    Not quite!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    You have a landlord, an HOA and neighbors. The neighbors are likely a non-issue legally. The HOA likely has a restrictive covenant and a lawyer. YOU have a contract with your landlord.
    Thanx anyway but there never was any box or proscription in the lease or by laws that mentioned any handgun. One thing I do know- Stae law trumps HOA or a lease- im legal so the only entity in this state that can dictate where and how I carry my weapon is the State of Iowa. No HOA or Landlord is a lawmaker or ( in this case) a law enforcer. As long as im legal they cant do anything but annoy me, and ive been married 3 times so - this is kid stuff. I sent a letter to the HOA/Edge management LLC that Jesus would get back on the cross before they saw my CCW and while they were at it to get a court order! For those who are offended by my lack of Piety I do appologize- but you cant let the camel in the tent. I like Iowa so far but it has a looooong way to go on gun rights

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    Quote Originally Posted by redsox View Post
    Iowa is OC provided you have a valid Iowa CCW- I rent a townhouse with a homeowners assoc and PITA neighbors. I go to my mailbox or car and have my Kimber on me, always holstered. The landlord and property manager INSISTED I show my CCW to THEM! They are not LEO and INHO have NO LEGAL right to veiw my CCW- of course you cant get any of these local gun groups to give you a straight answer ( though they want your donations) or attorneys either- and ill pay a billable hour! Im legal in the Staes eyes- so where does it say I have to prove that to you? go call the cops- im sure theyll tell you or maybe that CCW info is PRIVATE like HIPPA law?- anyonelse go through this nonsense?

    thanx
    Not sure which "local gun group" wouldn't answer the question, as I did not see it posted on the forum of the only Iowa gun group actively having legislation passed by any branch of the legislature (IFC and NRA).

    To answer your question though, as a life member of IFC: you can politely tell them to shove it, and if they doubt, to call the cops. Only LEOs have the power to compel you to show a permit, and, technically, due to a court precedent set this year, if you are not concealing and have a permit, you don't actually have to show your permit to them (but you will be extremely inconvenienced if you don't, and it's a unintended loophole in the grammar of the law, so much easier to show it and be on your way instead of showing up in court later, with your expensive lawyer, to have it dismissed).
    Last edited by amaixner; 10-01-2015 at 08:57 AM.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redsox View Post
    Thanx anyway but there never was any box or proscription in the lease or by laws that mentioned any handgun. One thing I do know- Stae law trumps HOA or a lease- im legal so the only entity in this state that can dictate where and how I carry my weapon is the State of Iowa. No HOA or Landlord is a lawmaker or ( in this case) a law enforcer. As long as im legal they cant do anything but annoy me, and ive been married 3 times so - this is kid stuff. I sent a letter to the HOA/Edge management LLC that Jesus would get back on the cross before they saw my CCW and while they were at it to get a court order! For those who are offended by my lack of Piety I do appologize- but you cant let the camel in the tent. I like Iowa so far but it has a looooong way to go on gun rights
    why did you post your original drive by statement if you were already of a mind to be cranky to those who respond?

    why didn't you just post you had sent a letter, with caveat of your lack of piety initially?

    and why in the world do i care you suck at maintaining any type of relationships? btw, i believe you will discern your relationship with your HOA will be short lived also...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    same old crap

    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    why did you post your original drive by statement if you were already of a mind to be cranky to those who respond?

    why didn't you just post you had sent a letter, with caveat of your lack of piety initially?

    and why in the world do i care you suck at maintaining any type of relationships? btw, i believe you will discern your relationship with your HOA will be short lived also...

    ipse
    I love this state- Iowa- you cry about suppressor legislation and you have no 'Stand your ground' and STILL have a 'duty to retreat' on the books - so your IFC and all the other Due's beggars dont have any REAL powert or just cant control their politicos. And as far as this guys blurb? Another internet tough guy, and the HOA? lets go to court and ill lein you forever, sorry I woke you up

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redsox View Post
    I love this state- Iowa- you cry about suppressor legislation and you have no 'Stand your ground' and STILL have a 'duty to retreat' on the books - so your IFC and all the other Due's beggars dont have any REAL powert or just cant control their politicos. And as far as this guys blurb? Another internet tough guy, and the HOA? lets go to court and ill lein you forever, sorry I woke you up
    thanks for making my point so elegantly...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redsox View Post
    Iowa is OC provided you have a valid Iowa CCW- I rent a townhouse with a homeowners assoc and PITA neighbors. I go to my mailbox or car and have my Kimber on me, always holstered. The landlord and property manager INSISTED I show my CCW to THEM! They are not LEO and INHO have NO LEGAL right to veiw my CCW- of course you cant get any of these local gun groups to give you a straight answer ( though they want your donations) or attorneys either- and ill pay a billable hour! Im legal in the Staes eyes- so where does it say I have to prove that to you? go call the cops- im sure theyll tell you or maybe that CCW info is PRIVATE like HIPPA law?- anyonelse go through this nonsense?

    thanx
    Your permit to carry is by no means private. There was a county that printed the names of each permit holder that resided there in the newspaper, dont remember which one.

    I AM NOT A LAWYER, take the following advice as opinion and seek your own council.

    As far as I know, and from previous "tenant v landlord" disputes, when you lease/rent property from another, the home, as well as all necessary egress and ingress locations to access your leased property, yard, structure, fence, etc, are yours to use as long as you are still in good standing with your organizations contract. I.E. Your rent is up to date, you lawn is mowed, windows clean, etc. The only issue is with the contract. If your contract states "No firearms except in your home..." or something along those lines, then I think you have to abide. It is "their" property.

    However, there is nothing written in Iowa Code 724 that states that you are required to show your permit to anyone other than a peace officer. The next time they ask, tell them to do the following. Call the police. They are landlords, not cops. They have no authority to require you to show your permit. If they continue to harass, call them yourself.

    Take the time to read THIS thoroughly. And contact an attorney who specializes in Tenant/Landlord disputes. They usually will at least chat with you about the situation before charging you anything. Good luck and keep us posted.
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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redsox View Post
    State law trumps HOA or a lease-
    Cite?
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Unfortunately for the original poster I'm on the side of the HOA, at least for now. Contract law is older than government, not just the government of Iowa, or the USA, but the entire concept of a government. A government is nothing but an extension of the concept of a contract, it is a contract among the people. If the HOA has a policy on firearms, and you signed it, then you have bound yourself to its rules. If that means showing a permit then that means you show your permit.

    In Cedar Rapids there is a monthly open carry night at Godfather's Pizza in the Town and Country Shopping Center, to enter with your firearm you must show your permit. Private property owners, under state law, may permit people to enter armed, or not, or place conditions on your being armed. That may include having to show a state issued permit. With a HOA the HOA board retains partial ownership of your property. Partial ownership of property is another concept that has long standing in law. As they retain partial ownership they have a say on what you can do on "your" land, that includes having to show a permit to carry your Kimber openly as you walk to and from your mailbox.

    I have not read the HOA agreement you signed, obviously, so I don't know what you agreed to when you rented your property. Unless you can show that the HOA do not have a say on the open carry of weapons then I would assume that they do retain the right to demand to see your permit. You might be able to argue otherwise in court but I don't see a whole lot of precedence in your favor.

    Of course that is my opinion, and it's worth exactly what you paid for it.

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    There was a county that printed the names of each permit holder that resided there in the newspaper, dont remember which one.
    As I recall the Des Moines Register used to print the Polk County permit to carry holders' names, and the Cedar Rapids Gazette would print the Linn County list of names. Those two lists cover 20% of the state population. I'm not sure if the Telegraph Herald printed the list of names from Dubuque County but it would not be out of character for them.

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    Wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by IA_farmboy View Post
    As I recall the Des Moines Register used to print the Polk County permit to carry holders' names, and the Cedar Rapids Gazette would print the Linn County list of names. Those two lists cover 20% of the state population. I'm not sure if the Telegraph Herald printed the list of names from Dubuque County but it would not be out of character for them.
    First off- a state that has a CCW but no STY or has Duty to retreat laws has no effective CCW protection and if you think thats wrong look at the multitude of other states that have SYG and NO duty to retreat. I protect mself against a felon and the cops put me in jail? I dont think so, and ill tell the cops the same thing. FYI- after a lot of research on my part ( and yes I contacted all the gun groups mentioned here and got nothing cause they dont know) 724 23 it states the records of all CCW holders- WAS- public record but is no longer - read it and youll see as of the previous legislature you need a COURT ORDER or my consent. Did I get this info from the gun groups I used to pay dues too? nope- so what good are they? console the poor sap who went to jail for protecting himself? thats pretty lame, in any state. So no- according to new law I dont have to show squat to non leo without a court order. Get some stand your ground laws in Iowa cause if you use your CCW, IFC and IGO cant help you- your on your own, ( but they sure cry for those dues!- the money they WASTE on mailings should be spent on buying legislation) Do a 'search' on how many states have SYG in this country and youll soon see how behind the eight ball Iowa is for citizen protection.

  16. #16
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redsox View Post
    First off- a state that has a CCW but no STY or has Duty to retreat laws has no effective CCW protection and if you think thats wrong look at the multitude of other states that have SYG and NO duty to retreat. I protect mself against a felon and the cops put me in jail? I dont think so, and ill tell the cops the same thing. FYI- after a lot of research on my part ( and yes I contacted all the gun groups mentioned here and got nothing cause they dont know) 724 23 it states the records of all CCW holders- WAS- public record but is no longer - read it and youll see as of the previous legislature you need a COURT ORDER or my consent. Did I get this info from the gun groups I used to pay dues too? nope- so what good are they? console the poor sap who went to jail for protecting himself? thats pretty lame, in any state. So no- according to new law I dont have to show squat to non leo without a court order. Get some stand your ground laws in Iowa cause if you use your CCW, IFC and IGO cant help you- your on your own, ( but they sure cry for those dues!- the money they WASTE on mailings should be spent on buying legislation) Do a 'search' on how many states have SYG in this country and youll soon see how behind the eight ball Iowa is for citizen protection.
    am kinda impressed red how you morf'd the thread from your drive by HOA rant to an entirely different multiple topic tirade...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    am kinda impressed red how you morf'd the thread from your drive by HOA rant to an entirely different multiple topic tirade...

    ipse
    Wait... you're telling me you understood what he was saying in that?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    This thread manages to mix complaints that involve little with RKBA and more to do with real estate law.

    Rants are not well received here - you are either part of the solution or you are part of the problem. Just complaining grows wearisome.

    Further, attacks on gun rights groups, except for their opposition to open carry, is a violation of Forum Rules.

    Those seeking to disrupt, should consider this as a warning.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-07-2015 at 05:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redsox View Post
    724 23 it states the records of all CCW holders- WAS- public record but is no longer - read it and youll see as of the previous legislature you need a COURT ORDER or my consent.
    I was merely responding to Tucker's recollection that CCW names USED TO be printed in the newspaper but could not recall which county that happened in. I know the Des Moines Register has posted a list of names in the past. I recall hearing from others that the Cedar Rapids Gazette had printed the names in the past. I vaguely recall that perhaps the Telegraph Herald has also done so. I did not claim that this practice continues.

    I assumed that it was common knowledge on this forum that permit to carry records were no longer public, if that confused you then I apologize for not making that clear in my earlier post.

    Also, I did state quite clearly in my earlier post that it was merely my opinion, given what I know of Iowa law and precedent, that a property owner can demand to see your permit if you are armed on their property. It is my opinion that unless you show your permit you are do not have permission to be armed on property in which the HOA retains even partial ownership. It is my opinion that until you show your permit you risk being evicted.

    You asked two questions in your original post, where does it state in law that you must show your permit, and has this happened to me. In Iowa code 724.4, paragraph 4, the exceptions to having to having to possess a permit are listed. While not stated explicitly it is implied that the owner of the property may give permission to possess weapons on their property. As you stated you do not own the property, you lease it. The manager of the property has stated you may get his permission to carry so long as you show him you have been licensed by the state. Therefore, in my opinion, you must show your permit.

    As to your second question, I was a property owner before I was a gun owner so I have not been in the same position as you.

    I understand that you do not agree with my opinion. Getting angry with me is not going to change my position. What might change my mind is more information on what was in the lease agreement that you signed. It seems you are not in the mood to share that information, which is fine by me as I believe I am not in the mood to read your lease agreement.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    "A political subdivision of the state shall not enact an ordinance regulating the ownership, possession, legal transfer, lawful transportation, registration, or licensing of firearms when the ownership, possession, transfer, or transportation is otherwise lawful under the laws of this state."
    http://coolice.legis.iowa.gov/cool-i...3&input=724.28

    Help needed - Is a HOA a political subdivision of the state in Iowa? I don't know yet - haven't determined. They are considered such in some states.

    Is this effective in this instance? I think it might be.
    https://www.legis.iowa.gov/docs/code/2015/499B.10.pdf
    https://www.legis.iowa.gov/law/iowaCode/sections?codeChapter=499B&year=2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    "A political subdivision of the state shall not enact an ordinance regulating the ownership, possession, legal transfer, lawful transportation, registration, or licensing of firearms when the ownership, possession, transfer, or transportation is otherwise lawful under the laws of this state."
    [ ... ]
    Help needed - Is a HOA a political subdivision of the state in Iowa? I don't know yet - haven't determined. They are considered such in some states.[ ... ]
    Iowa Code CHAPTER 23A NONCOMPETITION BY GOVERNMENT
    23A.1 DEFINITIONS.
    As used in this chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:
    1. "Political subdivision" means a city, county, or school
    corporation.

    http://coolice.legis.iowa.gov/cool-i...code&input=23A
    Not. Formation not being subject to election.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 10-10-2015 at 08:24 AM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    "A political subdivision of the state shall not enact an ordinance regulating the ownership, possession, legal transfer, lawful transportation, registration, or licensing of firearms when the ownership, possession, transfer, or transportation is otherwise lawful under the laws of this state."
    [ ... ]
    Help needed - Is a HOA a political subdivision of the state in Iowa? I don't know yet - haven't determined. They are considered such in some states.[ ... ]
    Iowa Code CHAPTER 23A NONCOMPETITION BY GOVERNMENT
    23A.1 DEFINITIONS.
    As used in this chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:
    1. "Political subdivision" means a city, county, or school
    corporation.

    http://coolice.legis.iowa.gov/cool-i...code&input=23A


    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Not. Formation not being subject to election.
    I found that also. Note the words, "As used in this chapter."

    That chapter is about the competative bidding process. I see no connection to HOA making rules - none, nada.

    The question stll stands unanswered.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The question stll stands unanswered.
    I believe it will remain so until we can see the HOA constitution and the lease agreement.

    I believe this falls completely under contract law. What does the contract say? I believe that while a "no guns allowed" clause may carry no legal weight a property owner may ask an occupant to leave. Failure to leave when asked is trespassing. Someone might feel that being asked to show their permit to carry weapons to stay on the property to be unnecessary but if those are the conditions then comply or leave. Much like places that have a dress code to enter, or be of a certain age, or any of a number of conditions to enter, it's private property and people may be asked to leave for any reason.

    If redsox wants to take this to court and get legal precedent in Iowa that people that rent or lease property can be armed on that property, without having to show a permit, then I welcome it. Just be sure to get some smart lawyers so that this case doesn't screw it up for the rest of us.

  24. #24
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IA_farmboy View Post
    I believe it will remain so until we can see the HOA constitution and the lease agreement.

    I believe this falls completely under contract law. What does the contract say? I believe that while a "no guns allowed" clause may carry no legal weight a property owner may ask an occupant to leave. Failure to leave when asked is trespassing. Someone might feel that being asked to show their permit to carry weapons to stay on the property to be unnecessary but if those are the conditions then comply or leave. Much like places that have a dress code to enter, or be of a certain age, or any of a number of conditions to enter, it's private property and people may be asked to leave for any reason.

    If redsox wants to take this to court and get legal precedent in Iowa that people that rent or lease property can be armed on that property, without having to show a permit, then I welcome it. Just be sure to get some smart lawyers so that this case doesn't screw it up for the rest of us.
    the eviction process would be pursued under the guise of 'breach of contract provisions' and it is up to the tenant to legally dispute, costing $$$$ and the tenant would still be evicted from the property while disputing the issue. the property manager, being kind soul they are would put the eviction on your credit report which would entail another fight to remove.

    a passing note...if evicted, the tenant is contractually obligated to pay for the property's legal fees. while the tenant may say who cares...the property manager will start billing and even not actually paying, the tenant will have collections on the record in the thousands of dollars...there is no itemization of their eviction generated 'attorney fees' either.

    so Red, have deep pockets...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by IA_farmboy View Post
    I was merely responding to Tucker's recollection that CCW names USED TO be printed in the newspaper but could not recall which county that happened in. I know the Des Moines Register has posted a list of names in the past. I recall hearing from others that the Cedar Rapids Gazette had printed the names in the past. I vaguely recall that perhaps the Telegraph Herald has also done so. I did not claim that this practice continues.

    I assumed that it was common knowledge on this forum that permit to carry records were no longer public, if that confused you then I apologize for not making that clear in my earlier post.


    ...
    You are 100% correct that the various large city newspapers print permit information.

    I'm pretty darn confused by your next statement, since that there has been absolutely zero change in the Iowa permit privacy laws since long before the IFC/NRA 2010 permit reform bill. In fact, the senate democrats blocked even a permit-data "accountability" bill this last session, which would have only allowed the general public to ask a "yes/no" question regarding if a specific person had a permit, and would have tied each single-person information request to a permanent public record stating WHO asked the question, and required official proof of identity to even ask about a permit status.

    This was passed by the house 3+ times, and tabled/deleted the by the senate (Democrats) committee an equal number of times.

    This left us with the old law, which basically allows anyone to anonymously go to any sheriff and request the entire roster of permits in that county. They are currently 100% public records, (Thanks IGO and the Gronstol(D) and Stodders(D) for blocking this privacy improvement.)


    No personal attack intended, but, per the forum rules, Please cite the state law, and or the bill which reformed it, that made permits non-public data in Iowa.

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