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Thread: Umpqua College

  1. #1
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    Umpqua College

    Just heard Umpqua College in Roseburg shooting. Anyone else confirm this?
    Chuck Norris/Ted Nugent That's the ticket for 2016!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    ROSEBURG, Oregon — At least seven people were reportedly killed and more than 20 others injured in a shooting at Oregon’s Umpqua Community College on Thursday morning, Oregon State Police spokesman Bill Fugate told CNN.

    http://q13fox.com/2015/10/01/reports...ties-reported/

    Expect knee jerk reactions and dancing.

    Death toll upgraded to 10 + 20 injured, some critically.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-01-2015 at 05:00 PM. Reason: added
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=NavyLCDR;2162257]Really?

    http://www.bradycampaign.org/press-r...llege-shooting

    --snipped--
    /QUOTE]
    Educational sanctuary has become synonymous with fish in a barrel. No immediate means of self defense.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-01-2015 at 05:14 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    All the talking head experts yapping about campus safety, but not one word about students should be allowed to carry.

    One grandparent of a student who also use to work there said that it was a gun free zone and she couldn't understand how this could have happened...
    Last edited by color of law; 10-01-2015 at 05:17 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    The reports say that the police are seeking a warrant to search the shooters house.

    My question is where is the warrant to search the students backpacks......

  6. #6
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    nothing in the least confrontational of the wrists bent backwards of the young man on the right by the nice LE searching the young man's pockets.

    yes, yes, yes...i know the nice LEs need to assure the one in custody doesn't or didn't or whatever the thought process being currently implemented have an accomplice ..but

    out LEs have not mastered the psychological profiling employed by other LE entities in foreign lands...

    ipse
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    From the Armed Campuses website:

    In an Oregon Court of Appeals case (2011), three judges concluded that Oregon public colleges and universities no longer have authority to ban weapons on the physical grounds of a campus. Each school does however, have discretion as to whether to permit concealed handguns inside buildings, dormitories, event centers, and classrooms. Private colleges and universities may still prohibit weapons throughout the entire campus including grounds.

    On March, 2, 2012, the Oregon Higher Education Board voted unanimously to ban weapons in all seven state colleges and universities.

    ...

    As of August 21, 2013, no private or public universities, colleges, or community colleges permit weapons inside of buildings. No private universities permit weapons on campus grounds.
    So, while someone can technically carry a gun legally onto the campus of public colleges in Oregon, anyone attending classes is effectively disarmed from the last location they can store their firearms. At best, this would be inside their car in a parking lot somewhere on campus. Most likely, most often, I would expect that most everyone attending classes is going to be disarmed from the moment they leave home...assuming "home" is something private and off campus, rather than a dormitory.

    In other words, for all intents and purposes, Oregon colleges are all defenseless victim zones.

    But the problem is caused by where and how the murderer (notice how the media calls them a "shooter" when they use a gun, rarely are they called a "pugilist" if they use their fists, or a "stabber" if they use a knife) got his guns, not that his victims were all fish in a barrel.

    Charles
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    of things i find it interesting...
    when i first heard about this event right after it was broadcast my ping on the local news report stated the perpetrator was in 'custody' yet when i turned the news on a few minutes ago...perpetrator was dead or as the sheriff stated at a news conference: male shooter had been "neutralized" and was dead after an exchange of gunfire with responding officers.

    and the records will be sealed forever...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 10-01-2015 at 06:21 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Oregon public colleges are mostly gun-free zones. Courts ruled they cannot avoid state preemption law (ORS 166.170), but they can have contractual rules that apply to faculty staff, employees, students, and contracted companies.

    A person that has no ties to the public college can carry a firearm on campus (public buildings require a CHL), but guaranteed that they would try to say you are "disrupting" the college learning experiance and go for a trespassing charge (shouldn't hold up in court, but who wants to go though the system... time & money).

    Note: this community college has a higher average age (like 30ish) and you have to be 21 to get a CHL.
    Sad that these rules keep CHL holding students / staff from carrying, they might have had someone (especially former military) who could have responded sooner and kept the body count lower.

    Expect the Oregon legislature and anti-gunners to push for more restrictive laws no matter if they would have any effect on this or other shootings.
    Last edited by Lord Sega; 10-01-2015 at 06:30 PM.
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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Side question, under what authority can law enforcement require the backpack/bag search (and apparently person search) of everyone on the campus? Looks like a mass violation of the 4th amendment (unless the person voluntarily submits).

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    "Guns are not the problem … crazy is the problem” ... “We cannot legislate our society to the craziest amongst us.” - Jon Stewart
    “I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." - Tolkien

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sega View Post
    Side question, under what authority can law enforcement require the backpack/bag search (and apparently person search) of everyone on the campus? Looks like a mass violation of the 4th amendment (unless the person voluntarily submits).
    I am not a lawyer and please do not take my response as any kind of agreement with what the police are doing.

    But, to answer your question as best I can, my guess would be that the police would appeal to the "exigent circumstance" doctrine. This is what allows them to kick in a door without a warrant when they hear someone screaming for help from inside.

    Notice that the constitution prohibits "unreasonable" search and seizure. Warrants are issued pursuant to sworn testimony and other restrictions. But the courts have held (for better or worse) that certain searches and seizures are "reasonable" even in the absence of a warrant.

    With several dead bodies in a confined area I expect the courts would uphold the power of police to do a quick search of persons and effects in the area in the interest of immediate public safety against a 2nd potential shooter (or even the 1st until he is in custody).

    Again, I'm not saying I agree this is right, it is just my best understanding of the way it is.

    Now, where it would get really interesting is if the search turned up something illegal (stolen property, drugs, or kiddie porn for example) that had no connection to immediate, exigent public safety. Do the courts allow that to be used as evidence in a criminal prosecution since the search itself was "reasonable"? Or do they toss the evidence since it was found only as a result of a search for something entirely different? I do not know.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sega View Post
    Side question, under what authority can law enforcement require the backpack/bag search (and apparently person search) of everyone on the campus? Looks like a mass violation of the 4th amendment (unless the person voluntarily submits).

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    Terry v. Ohio
    Cops can only do a pat-down for weapons. For a search cops need a warrant.

  13. #13
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Terry v. Ohio
    Cops can only do a pat-down for weapons. For a search cops need a warrant.
    so color a query...based on your understanding, does terry permit the wrist twisting showing in the earlier foto or is that a officer safety mentality? especially since it seems the students are compliant...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  14. #14
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    so color a query...based on your understanding, does terry permit the wrist twisting showing in the earlier foto or is that a officer safety mentality? especially since it seems the students are compliant...

    ipse
    That falls into one of those exception categories that the USSC has not defined yet.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    so color a query...based on your understanding, does terry permit the wrist twisting showing in the earlier foto or is that a officer safety mentality? especially since it seems the students are compliant...

    ipse
    The debail is in the details.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Now, where it would get really interesting is if the search turned up something illegal (stolen property, drugs, or kiddie porn for example) that had no connection to immediate, exigent public safety. Do the courts allow that to be used as evidence in a criminal prosecution since the search itself was "reasonable"? Or do they toss the evidence since it was found only as a result of a search for something entirely different? I do not know.
    As long as the evidence of criminal activity is found through an otherwise lawful way, it can be used even if unrelated. For instance, if a drug dog alerts on a car, and they find kiddie porn, they will be charged. Evidence can only get thrown out if you can find it was found through an unlawful (not unrelated) means. The debate as to whether these backpack searches is legal would be their best defense, not the unrelated nature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STLDaniel View Post
    As long as the evidence of criminal activity is found through an otherwise lawful way, it can be used even if unrelated. For instance, if a drug dog alerts on a car, and they find kiddie porn, they will be charged. Evidence can only get thrown out if you can find it was found through an unlawful (not unrelated) means. The debate as to whether these backpack searches is legal would be their best defense, not the unrelated nature.
    Thank you for the information.

    I guess the intent is to protect against unlawful searches, not to make it needlessly difficult to prosecute crimes, so this makes sense.

    On the flip side, what good is the requirement for warrants to describe the particular place to be searched and items for which the search is conducted, if anything found can then be used? It would seem, based on what you've posted, that once a valid warrant is issued, any evidence, of any crime, discovered during the lawful search is fair game even if the item described in the warrant is never found. Seems kind of a big and dangerous loophole.

    "We can't get enough PC for a warrant to search his books, but we found a joint on the guy and can get a warrant to search his home for weed, which could be hidden inside any of his file folders or ledgers......"

    Or have I missed something.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Looks like assault by LEO.

    Could result in nerve damage.

    I hope it results in a massive lawsuit.
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  19. #19
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    That falls into one of those exception categories that the USSC has not defined yet.
    thanks...wondered about that...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    I just want to add some new information/understanding to what has been posted so far regarding the gun-free zone status of Umpqua Community College. Here goes (from another blogger replying to a post I made on another site):

    "The 7 schools covered in that 2012 ban (on prohibiting concealed carry on campus) were all the public, 4-year universities in the state, which means UCC (Umpqua Community College) was not part of that ban since it's a 2-year community college. The community colleges in the state were able to make their own rules based on that 2011 (a previous Oregon Supreme Court) ruling and most (if not all) have gone with not allowing guns in any campus buildings." (my edits in parenthesis for clarity)

    So if the above is true, then we have a TOTAL gun ban on the Umpqua campus, not just inside the buildings. This is consistent with the published Umpqua security policy that outlines their status as a weapons-free institution (screen grabs of this policy are available on the net - the relevant school web page was down/unavailable last time I checked).

    Also, all Umpqua's security guards were unarmed (according to the college president).

    Umpqua's gun-free zone status is important, because I've been to a lot of anti-gun leaning sites/blogs today and have noticed a great many misleadng posts stating that Umpqua was not a gun-free zone and therefore the pro-gun argument that guns save lives or at least deter these mass murders is false. They are misunderstanding Oregon law or deliberately fibbing. It is up to us to set the record straight!
    Last edited by OC4me; 10-02-2015 at 10:29 AM.

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    A buddy of mine listened to the 911 chatter. 8 minutes from time of first call to first officer on scene and all security is unarmed. When seconds count, help is only minutes away.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    It's a small world. Former president of UCC is a Chesterfield, Va resident.

    http://www.nbc12.com/story/30168715/...-mass-shooting
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Well, for me, this says it all:

    "Speaking to reporters late Thursday, college President Rita Calvin said the attack on her campus was both a “tragedy and an anomaly.”

    "The campus employs at least one security officer, and several faculty members are retired law enforcement personnel, according to school officials. But none of them are allowed to be armed, she said.

    “We have a no-guns-on-campus policy,” Calvin said."

    And how is that working out? Just ONE armed teacher or student could have changed this. A few open carriers, and this scumbag would have chosen a softer target.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

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    Chris Harper-Mercer singled out Christians during rampage

    “[He started] asking people one by one what their religion was. ‘Are you a Christian?’ he would ask them, and if you’re a Christian stand up. And they would stand up and he said, ‘Good, because you’re a Christian, you are going to see God in just about one second.’ And then he shot and killed them,” Stacy Boylen, whose daughter was wounded at Umpqua Community College in Roseburg, Ore., told CNN."
    [ ... ]
    Gunman Chris Harper-Mercer’s disdain for religion was evident in an online profile, in which he became a member of a “doesn’t like organized religion” group on an Internet dating site.
    [ ... ]
    “Seems like the more people you kill, the more you’re in the limelight,” he wrote.

    http://nypost.com/2015/10/01/oregon-...uring-rampage/

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Looks like assault by LEO.

    Could result in nerve damage.

    I hope it results in a massive lawsuit.
    The cops will be determined to have acted as reasonably to ensure public safety and themselves. It is very likely that no citizen subjected to the efforts of LE will pursue a redress of wrongs. The Aurora CO Constitutional Suspension Event and the Watertown MA Constitutional Suspension Event are to be referred to.

    In the Aurora Constitutional Suspension Event a black man was removed from his vehicle when the cops were explicitly searching for a white man. The ~30 citizens were detained for over two hours. A judge ruled that the APD acted properly. In Watertown it remains to be seen if any civil action will be initiated. Very unlikely given the claimed exigency by LE.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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