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Thread: some decent journalism about mass shootings

  1. #1
    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    some decent journalism about mass shootings

    I followed a link from a story about the Oregon shooting to USA Today's Behind the Bloodshed http://www.gannett-cdn.com/GDContent...dex.html#title

    This is a worthwhile read given how much the topic is likely to be discussed in the coming days/weeks. This appears to be some thorough, non-hysterical research. I didn't see much overt bias or idiotic factual errors and they generally were clear on how they were defining terms (although they did attribute 0.4% of mass killings to "automatic weapons" without providing details). There's some uncomfortable truths for both sides of the debate in there.

    My take-aways included:
    1. their timeline shows that these events have been pretty stable/consistent over recent years (no big increase/decrease)
    2. 77% of mass killing involved firearms, which means 23% didn't
    3. about half of them are people flipping out and close killing family members
    4. the perpetrators of crimes that resulted in mass killings were usually repeat offenders
    5. nearly all of them involve people with a previous history of mental illness and/or criminal offenses


    This does nothing to dissuade me from my opinion that the root cause of the mass shooting problem is how many crazy people and felons are wandering around. I believe we are reaping the results of laws that make involuntary commitment for mental illness nearly impossible and the revolving door court system. Guns have been around for 400 years, mass shootings much less so.
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    It is a criminal protection zone. Do I need to say more?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    It is a criminal protection zone. Do I need to say more?
    With great sadness +1
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    It is a criminal protection zone. Do I need to say more?
    Well, actually, yes you do. It's not a one-dimensional problem.

    Rapid multiple murders are not going to be stopped just by allowing guns.

    Most community college/university students are between 17 and 20 years old - barred from purchasing a firearm from an FFL.

    Most people do not have the mindset necessary to pull the trigger. In the military where they are trained to kill the percentage can be as high as 90% of those engaged by enemy fire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing What would you then expect from civilians?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Eeyore, I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion, even though I like the basic facts you pulled from it. While that piece may be factually correct, it looks to me like nothing more than another fear mongering bit of yellow journalism. On the flip side, it is better than this collection which is full of gun hating left wing dolts spewing their self important opinionated crap, save for this nice little tid bit from S.E. Cupp (God bless that woman).

    The problem will always be there. So called news media mainstream is so slanted that it needs a semi truck speed emergency ramp. In their graves, Cronkite is weeping and Murrow is spinning.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

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    Elsewhere in the considerable comment on this horrible event, it is noted that the average at this particular community college is over thirty years old.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 10-02-2015 at 06:03 AM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Well, actually, yes you do. It's not a one-dimensional problem.

    Rapid multiple murders are not going to be stopped just by allowing guns.

    Most community college/university students are between 17 and 20 years old - barred from purchasing a firearm from an FFL.

    Most people do not have the mindset necessary to pull the trigger. In the military where they are trained to kill the percentage can be as high as 90% of those engaged by enemy fire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing What would you then expect from civilians?

    stay safe.
    That brings the questions is how many firearms owners are serious about defensive use with their firearms.

    How often do they carry them, when was the last time they were to the range when did they ever practice by dry firing let alone receive any specialized training.

    Dry firing practicing, trigger control, drawing, using cover kneeling and other positions is cheap and only takes time.

    But when I ask a lot of gun owners when they last practiced they give me a blank look.

    I said it before 90 percent are not serious at all another 5 to 7 percent are some what then you have the top 3 percent who train, shoot and practice on a regular basics.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

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  8. #8
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Well, actually, yes you do. It's not a one-dimensional problem.

    Rapid multiple murders are not going to be stopped just by allowing guns.

    Most community college/university students are between 17 and 20 years old - barred from purchasing a firearm from an FFL.

    Most people do not have the mindset necessary to pull the trigger. In the military where they are trained to kill the percentage can be as high as 90% of those engaged by enemy fire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing What would you then expect from civilians?

    stay safe.
    Address the more immediate need, or concern, stopping the threat.

    http://www.policeone.com/police-trai...cal-advantage/

    Cart before horse.

    The dead feel no remorse.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Address the more immediate need, or concern, stopping the threat.

    http://www.policeone.com/police-trai...cal-advantage/

    Cart before horse.

    The dead feel no remorse.
    In order to stop the threat you have to be willing to pull the trigger.

    Pose the following question to someone you know who carries for self defense: Are you absolutely, without hesitation or reservation, willing to kill a human being if that will be the end result of your shooting them?

    Tell them to think about it for a week and then come back to you with their answer.

    I put that question to people who ask me for advice about getting a gun or what gun to get. I do try to follow up in helping them to come around to saying "Yes" if their initial response was No".

    What I find missing is research on the responses of "victims" of Rapid Multiple Murders - those who fight back, those that seek to escape, those who attempt to hide, and those that wait to see if fate will spare them.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  10. #10
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    In order to stop the threat you have to be willing to pull the trigger.

    Pose the following question to someone you know who carries for self defense: Are you absolutely, without hesitation or reservation, willing to kill a human being if that will be the end result of your shooting them?

    Tell them to think about it for a week and then come back to you with their answer.

    I put that question to people who ask me for advice about getting a gun or what gun to get. I do try to follow up in helping them to come around to saying "Yes" if their initial response was No".

    What I find missing is research on the responses of "victims" of Rapid Multiple Murders - those who fight back, those that seek to escape, those who attempt to hide, and those that wait to see if fate will spare them.

    stay safe.
    skid check research on 'survivor' from mass tragedies such a aeroplane crashes or earthquake events, etc. most need therapy from the recrimination of living through the event (especially after their 15 minutes is finished ~ why they go on speaking tour or public crusade to maintain their face in the limelight) ~ this is after dealing with the grief of the loss of 'friends' (they become friends/buddys/pals verse acquaintances after a tragedy)

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  11. #11
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    In order to stop the threat you have to be willing to pull the trigger. ...
    Why ask them the question "Are you absolutely, without hesitation or reservation, willing to kill ...?"

    For your own self edification? What matter is it to you one way or the other? What business is it of yours? The question posed to you was about getting a gun (how do I get one) or what gun to get (a good gun or a Glock).

    I get it, part of getting/owning a gun requires us to think about such things, and then we have this need to see if our future gun owner has thought of such things. Natural response I suppose, to imbue some wisdom from our experiences onto the future gun owner. Fortunately I have had the privilege to not having to kill anybody with my gun, and thus avoid having to find out the answer. And then me asking such a question of another is presumptuous at a minimum.

    On the other hand, how about we asking them about the responsibility that comes with owning a vehicle and then operating it on the public roads. The odds of death or serious bodily harm is far greater when behind the wheel. Of course there are geographic exceptions where the need for a gun is concerned, N. S. Louis City being but one.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  12. #12
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    As soon as there is a mass shooting by a lone gunman at an nra convention, police station, gun range, or anywhere else where large groups of people are carrying loaded firearms; I might take a person serious when they disregard the fact that these always happen in gun free zones

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post

    their timeline shows that these events have been pretty stable/consistent over recent years (no big increase/decrease)
    If we could persuade people to accept this fact as factual, we'd be 90% toward avoiding any new bad, anti-gun laws.

    But most people are emotionally unable to accept it. They watch the news and almost daily hear about some kid getting kidnapped or murdered. Almost daily there are reports of violent crime from across the nation. The average person sees so much of these news stories they simply cannot be convinced that violent crime isn't going through the roof.

    Reality is, violent crime is half what it was in the 80s and 90s. It is now down to the levels of the 70s. That is still double what it was pre-60s (sex/drug/counter-culture revolution and civil-rights efforts). But for anyone 50 or younger, violent crime has never been lower in their memorable lifetime.

    When I was young, local news reported on local crime. We almost never heard about run-o'-the-mill murders, rapes, or robberies even in neighboring States, much less from half way across the nation; that just wasn't considered nearly as newsworthy as local events. So we heard a lot less about murder, rape, kidnappings, and other violent crimes than we do today.

    So often, it is obvious that emotion trumps reason. People believe violent crime is getting worse, so the facts are not going to change how they behave.

    I can easily believe that statistically rare events like mass murder have mostly held constant.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Why ask them the question "Are you absolutely, without hesitation or reservation, willing to kill ...?"

    For your own self edification? What matter is it to you one way or the other? What business is it of yours? The question posed to you was about getting a gun (how do I get one) or what gun to get (a good gun or a Glock).

    I get it, part of getting/owning a gun requires us to think about such things, and then we have this need to see if our future gun owner has thought of such things. Natural response I suppose, to imbue some wisdom from our experiences onto the future gun owner. Fortunately I have had the privilege to not having to kill anybody with my gun, and thus avoid having to find out the answer. And then me asking such a question of another is presumptuous at a minimum.
    I've never been quite so explicit as skid, but the question makes perfect sense; especially if we care about either the person asking us for advice, their loved ones, or about the image of the RKBA community in general. I do regularly ask what they want to do with the gun. Many have never really given much thought to the differences between defense of themselves and family at home, vs on the road, or during daily commute and errands.

    Owning a gun comes with a lot of responsibility. I would be remiss to encourage/assist someone to acquire a gun if I had any reason to think they were going to leave it laying around loaded where criminals or untrained children could access it.

    In a similar vein, the uninitiated need to understand that a gun isn't a talisman that keeps criminals away. Bad guys don't magically make easy targets like good guys only get shot when it fits a good storyline as shown in the movies.

    While the amount of training to become and stay proficient enough for self-defense with a gun is dramatically less than needed for edged or other martial arts weapons, or bare hands, it isn't zero.

    I will absolutely respect and defend the legal and constitutional right of any adult to go buy a gun in absolute ignorance. But I have no choice but to support appropriate penalties when a person misuses a gun to harm either through maliciousness or ignorance.

    So, if someone I care about and who trusts me enough to ask, asks about buying a gun, the conversation is going to involve more than just make, model, and best dealers in the area. I support your right to remain silent on any issue you think would be "presumptuous" and leave your friends and family to their own devices in such matters.


    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    On the other hand, how about we asking them about the responsibility that comes with owning a vehicle and then operating it on the public roads. The odds of death or serious bodily harm is far greater when behind the wheel. Of course there are geographic exceptions where the need for a gun is concerned, N. S. Louis City being but one.
    Any responsible driver should do exactly that if asked about getting a car by someone who has never had any automotive experience before. Around these parts with winter snow, I'm quick to remind transplants from warmer climates that a 4-wheel-drive won't do a thing to help them stop faster on slick roads. "We all have 4-wheel brakes these days," I tell them.

    I recently read a personal account of someone's early driving experience. As he had completed all the tests and had his driver license in hand, his father handed him the keys for his first real, solo drive. As he did so, his father said, "Congratulations. You are now in control of a deadly weapon." The person telling this story said he had always remembered his father's words about the car being a deadly weapon.

    Of course, most discussions about recommendations on cars are between those who have all driven for many years and so a knowledge of basic auto safety are generally assumed. Likewise, when a longtime gun owner asks for your advice on a gun you own, we might well presume he knows what he needs to know about guns and the incumbent responsibility, and he is simply looking for some personal insights into a specific model.

    But for the person who has never owned nor much used a gun before? If he thinks highly enough of me to ask for advice, my advice will include some areas he may not even know he needed to ask about.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Apparently, there were armed students on campus that day:

    "In an interview with MSNBC, veteran John Parker said he knows lots of students who conceal carry at the school because, despite a school policy that discourages weapons on campus, Oregon state law does allow it."

    http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/arme...oregon-killer/

  16. #16
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Skid, Piper, et al.,

    how did either of you come to the ultimate realization if you have to defend yourself or loved ones, someone "may" be killed? I am sure it was over a period of time while you reflected based on your religious learning (as such), subject matter research, 'talking to confidants' both privately or banter through association(s) such this forum, as well as introspect discussions with yourself. then it has been justified to yourselves as the understanding about the ramifications of pulling your firearm in the defence of yourself and loved ones.

    we have all heard the bravado of those who flatly state: " oh i shoot to kill anybody who 'threatens'...blah blah blah" and if you don't shut that individual's mentality down immediately shame on you as a SMExpert as you are doing a disservice to the individual and leads me to suggest perhaps you need to continue reflecting a tad more cuz if you haven't realized your SD firearm is for your personal defence which is pulled & fired to 'stop' the immediate threat ~ period!

    additionally, by not continuing the conversation into the judicial ramifications after a SD shooting, personally experienced by some, also does a disservice to the individual you are having the conversation with. ppl have no idea after a shooting they were involved with, will be treated as a criminal ~ handcuffed and treated to a ride to the jail and incarcerated while the nice LE investigate. then will live under the specter of homicide until the nice DA rules based on the nice LE reporting of the situation.

    further, no where did i hear mention of ramifications if an individual defending themselves and due to stress etc., bystanders are wounded or killed (or a loved one)? hopefully you have a rider on your homeowners policy to pay for those medical and funeral and resulting lawsuits from your actions.

    remember there are those individual(s) who have been psych'd out they have to carry (CC/OC) to show they support some BS cause to be one of the gang. peer pressure for that mentality is alive and well!!

    bottom line, if you are going to begin the shock and awe conversation at least follow through with a semi-complete conversations which includes ramifications of their actions so the individual can discern, through their own research and such, if they are capable and willing to defend themselves and be accountable for their actions.

    as for firearm recommendations to carry...my goodness, just listen to the banter here about this firearm is the greatest, nawlll this one is, nawlll it doesn't fit my hand, nawlll black powder is only way to go, and of course those LG enthusiasts have there own opinions. (remember joe is a shotgun for home defence type of guy).

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  17. #17
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    skid check research on 'survivor' from mass tragedies such a aeroplane crashes or earthquake events, etc. most need therapy from the recrimination of living through the event (especially after their 15 minutes is finished ~ why they go on speaking tour or public crusade to maintain their face in the limelight) ~ this is after dealing with the grief of the loss of 'friends' (they become friends/buddys/pals verse acquaintances after a tragedy)

    ipse
    better yet, if you want to "research" surviving a non firearm related tragedy and how it feels afterwards, I'll give you the name of a documentary on Netflix to watch (you can probably find it on youtube as well), you can then think of the questions for your "research", then you can ask them to someone (someone you, solus, have met once or twice, and skid has met many times). Might even be the closest thing to therapy someone has had.
    JFT 96

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    You should hear the ones I keep to myself.

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  18. #18
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    better yet, if you want to "research" surviving a non firearm related tragedy and how it feels afterwards, I'll give you the name of a documentary on Netflix to watch (you can probably find it on youtube as well), you can then think of the questions for your "research", then you can ask them to someone (someone you, solus, have met once or twice, and skid has met many times). Might even be the closest thing to therapy someone has had.
    favor mate pm the name would love to review it

    thanks...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Skid, ...,

    how did either of you come to the ultimate realization if you have to defend yourself or loved ones, someone "may" be killed? ....
    As a young child I observed* the teenage child of a family friend defend his father, me, and himself.

    * - I purposely use "observed" because "witness" so often carries baggage of victimhood and resulting debilitating emotional trauma.

    further, no where did i hear mention of ramifications if an individual defending themselves and due to stress etc., bystanders are wounded or killed (or a loved one)? hopefully you have a rider on your homeowners policy to pay for those medical and funeral and resulting lawsuits from your actions.
    Sorry to burst your bubble but homeowners insurance only covers accidents. As a well-known attorney has opined, justified/excusable homicide begins with "Yes, I shot the bastage. I meant to shoot the bastage. I did not care if shooting the bastage resulted in his dying." That's not an accident.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  20. #20
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    favor mate pm the name would love to review it

    thanks...

    ipse
    done
    JFT 96

    I'm sorry, did I offend you with my opinion?
    You should hear the ones I keep to myself.

    Porthos, Athos, and Aramis = peter nap, skidmark and Grapeshot, d'Artagnan = ?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    Apparently, there were armed students on campus that day:

    "In an interview with MSNBC, veteran John Parker said he knows lots of students who conceal carry at the school because, despite a school policy that discourages weapons on campus, Oregon state law does allow it."
    And where are the liberals decrying a "policy" that discourages the exercise of a constitutionally enumerated right? Imagine if there were a legally nonenforceable policy that kept dorm racially segregated.

    As for the article "destroying gun nuts' arguments", it seems there is no pleasing some people. Gun grabbing liberals complain that a legally armed person will just get in the way, harm others, or get himself killed. Then when the legally armed person doesn't do any of those things, they complain that they didn't intervene, and then attempt to claim this is reason to go ahead and disarm all law-abiding persons on campus?!?!?

    Talk about straw-man fallacy leading to a host of other logical problems.

    Let me clear up any confusion. This "gun nut" has no intention of intervening, running toward gun fire, or otherwise playing hero. I carry my gun to defend myself and my loved ones. If some murderous nut case on the street largely because pinko-hippy-tree-hugging liberals only care about providing mental health services when it can be used to disarm decent people for life decides to go on a murderous rampage, I intend to run away if at all possible. If I can't safely escape, I intend to shelter-in-place in a defensive position if possible. Only if I have no other choice do I intend to engage said liberal-coddled-problem-child.

    In such a final case, I intend to end the murderer's ability to harm me. That likely has a side effect of ending his ability to harm anyone else as well. But that is merely a side effect. It is not my goal nor responsibility.

    Now, do tell me, how many of the victims in Oregon yesterday, or in either of the Fort Hood terror attacks, the Colorado Theater, Columbine, or Newtown were armed and prepared to defend themselves?

    In any of these incidents, how many innocent victims were hurt or killed by a legally armed citizen acting in his own self-defense?

    Seems to me that being legally armed correlates rather strongly with not being killed in a mass shooting. I think I'll continue to go armed. Others may do as they see fit. But I intend to go armed.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Skid, Piper, et al.,
    Sorry, "mate" but until I can make heads nor tails of what your burr is, I can't give much response.

    No offense, but I'm just not up to taking the time or effort to decipher your ramblings.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Sorry, "mate" but until I can make heads nor tails of what your burr is, I can't give much response.

    No offense, but I'm just not up to taking the time or effort to decipher your ramblings.

    Charles
    Some of us feel the same way about you.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    better yet, if you want to "research" surviving a non firearm related tragedy and how it feels afterwards, I'll give you the name of a documentary on Netflix to watch (you can probably find it on youtube as well), you can then think of the questions for your "research", then you can ask them to someone (someone you, solus, have met once or twice, and skid has met many times). Might even be the closest thing to therapy someone has had.
    Can you just post it? I am interested in this documentary as well.
    One can never have too much knowledge.

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    As a young child I observed* the teenage child of a family friend defend his father, me, and himself...
    Do you mind sharing the details with us?

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