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Thread: Gun free zones

  1. #1
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    Gun free zones

    Who here agrees that we need more gun free zones and why? At the time of all of the mass shootings that we have had where were the police. There is a video on youtube that I ran across called shooters grill in Rifle ,Colo. If you get a chance check it out. I really wish we had places like that in Oklahoma. Going back to gun free zones I think if people were allowed to carry everywhere we might just have less mass shootings in this country. I don't carry all the time because of what has happen and what people would think. We still have a lot of anti-gun people out there plus I'm scared of having some idiot calling the police on me if they see me carrying. What is your opinion?

    A armed society is a polite society/

    Gregg

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    Regular Member kinggabby's Avatar
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    One thing you must remember is gun control is not for the kids. Gun control is not to protect the people. Gun control is people control. As long as we can have weapons all other amendments are for the most part safe. Politicians use what shooting to try and convince people on the fence to back anti gun laws. Fear is a powerful tool. Fear used right in some people will blind people to the truth. We in the gun community know that criminals do not follow the law. We know that if guns were not allowed then they would use other means to complete there sentence of death on whomever they wish ( Timothy McVeigh, Bath massacre, Osaka school massacre in Japan, and Alton Alexander Nolen in Moore, OK ) None used guns to kill. But the media wants people to think otherwise. An old saying comes to memory. People who tell the same lie eventually believe those lies. That's why no matter what logic and factual data you bring up they will not listen. They already have their beliefs set. You would have a more productive time arguing with a wall. Hitler knew that gun control was people control. HE knew once he could take guns out of peoples hands he could do what he wished. Other dictators learned the same lesson.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinggabby View Post
    One thing you must remember is gun control is not for the kids. Gun control is not to protect the people. Gun control is people control. As long as we can have weapons all other amendments are for the most part safe. Politicians use what shooting to try and convince people on the fence to back anti gun laws. Fear is a powerful tool. Fear used right in some people will blind people to the truth. We in the gun community know that criminals do not follow the law. We know that if guns were not allowed then they would use other means to complete there sentence of death on whomever they wish ( Timothy McVeigh, Bath massacre, Osaka school massacre in Japan, and Alton Alexander Nolen in Moore, OK ) None used guns to kill. But the media wants people to think otherwise. An old saying comes to memory. People who tell the same lie eventually believe those lies. That's why no matter what logic and factual data you bring up they will not listen. They already have their beliefs set. You would have a more productive time arguing with a wall. Hitler knew that gun control was people control. HE knew once he could take guns out of peoples hands he could do what he wished. Other dictators learned the same lesson.
    I had a friend who was the ultimate macho man except for one thing; you even say the word snake, let alone show him a picture of a snake and this guy was on top of the table. He was in your total control, he was putty in your hands.

    Now, replace the word snake with gun. There are those that will always believe that 2+2=5. But it is worse than that, it's politicians that pray on those fears to control the populous. And when you show the sucker why he is a sucker he will chime back with - how dare you insult their intelligence.

    Remember, God-denying people are never content with what they have or who they are; their greed drives them relentlessly.
    Last edited by color of law; 10-05-2015 at 03:21 PM.

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    "A shoot-out is better than a massacre!" - David M. Bennett

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Gregg, you would enjoy the environment and the female wait staff all carrying...food kinda, sorta is eh...but it is like hooters...you don't go for the food but rather the 'ambiance' of the place.

    as for swatting, you might review some of the discussions on this forum...it is a concern...but i don't live my life worrying about what some might, could, or will do when they see my SDefence tool on my belt cuz i know i haven't, to the best of my knowledge anyway, done anything to cause the nice LE to use deadly force against me.

    keep carrying and mind your own business and the savants will see your behaviour isn't a threat to them ...

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

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    Can you name me one mass shooting that has occurred by a lone gunman where the majority of people were armed?
    Nra convention, gun range, police station etc...
    Any of you?

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    The sight of a holstered handgun being carried by a Law Abiding Citizen needs to become normalized. The only way I know how to do that is to go about my daily activities with my handgun holstered at my side, just like my wallet is in my front left pocket and my handkerchief is in my left rear pocket and my eyeglasses are hung on my nose and ears.

    There's always the chance of being SWATed - for having a gun or looking like a homeless Santa Claus or putting enough chile oil in my Chinese soup to make noses run at the next table over. Just like there is a chance of being flattened by a semi trying to beat the yellow light or the **&^#%( person ahead of me in the grocery checkout lane deciding to finish their cell phone conversation then dig around for their EBT card when half of the junk they have is not allowed so they send the kid to put it back - one item at a time.

    Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by travr6 View Post
    Can you name me one mass shooting that has occurred by a lone gunman where the majority of people were armed?
    Nra convention, gun range, police station etc...
    Any of you?
    http://www.kgw.com/story/news/2014/07/24/12405148/

    just one comes immediately mind...and one CC'r

    did not end well for the shooter

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    http://www.kgw.com/story/news/2014/07/24/12405148/

    just one comes immediately mind...and one CC'r

    did not end well for the shooter

    ipse
    Not a mass shooting and not in a place where the majority were armed.


    Try again

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by travr6 View Post
    Not a mass shooting and not in a place where the majority were armed.
    Try again
    your right travr6, three (two random souls plus the shooter) lost in a mall environment by a shooter using a rifle, shouldn't meet your criteria. i am glad you have defined the terms as there are quote:

    There are mass murders and mass killings, active shooters and serial killers, mass shootings and mass public shootings.

    The FBI, by contrast, doesn’t have an official definition of “mass shooting” on the books, but in 2014 defined a “mass killing” as one with three or more fatalities...

    ...Mass Shooting Tracker...defines a mass shooting as one with “four or more people shot in one event.”

    ...the Congressional Research Service (CRS) defined a mass shooting as a homicide in which four or more people are killed with firearms—a definition based on the FBI’s definition of a “mass murder” as opposed to a “mass shooting.”

    But other statistics, including a Harvard analysis, show that mass shootings—in which four people were killed....

    The difference between three dead and four dead might be statistically significant, but is morally negligible. Just hours after the Oregon shooting, a man shot dead his wife and two others, and injured a fourth person, in North Florida. On Friday, five people were shot outside a Baltimore shopping center.

    unquote http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...mass-shootings

    you're right, in my cite alledgedly one at least stood up with his firearm.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 10-05-2015 at 06:38 PM.
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Not sure what you were trying to prove there. Your mall shooting example was neither a mass shooting nor a place where the majority of people were armed.
    1 person with a firearm in a shopping mall full of people does not make a majority.

    Even if there had been 100 people killed in your example it still didn't meet what I asked for.




    Again, has there ever been a mass shooting by a lone gunman where the majority of people were armed? Ever?
    Last edited by travr6; 10-05-2015 at 07:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwhitegm60 View Post
    Who here agrees that we need more gun free zones and why
    I don't agree with that. They are target rich environments for criminals.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by travr6 View Post
    ... Again, has there ever been a mass shooting by a lone gunman where the majority of people were armed? Ever?
    How about this instead:
    Has there ever been a mass shooting by a lone gunman where the majority of people could be armed? Ever?
    Then again, a mall may have a fair number of people armed and nobody knows they are armed.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwhitegm60 View Post
    Who here agrees that we need more gun free zones and why? At the time of all of the mass shootings that we have had where were the police. There is a video on youtube that I ran across called shooters grill in Rifle ,Colo. If you get a chance check it out. I really wish we had places like that in Oklahoma. Going back to gun free zones I think if people were allowed to carry everywhere we might just have less mass shootings in this country. I don't carry all the time because of what has happen and what people would think. We still have a lot of anti-gun people out there plus I'm scared of having some idiot calling the police on me if they see me carrying. What is your opinion?

    A armed society is a polite society/

    Gregg
    I am sorry that you are afraid of idiots and what idiots think or might do. It is a really sad state of affairs once we let idiots do the thinking and if we let them dictate the course of our daily lives. Idiocy, I tell you, idiocy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    How about this instead: Then again, a mall may have a fair number of people armed and nobody knows they are armed.
    That has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

    These mass shooters tend to pick places where the people are not allowed to defend themselves.

    There have been a few times where a person had give into a police station shooting but they were meet with an immediate response and were unable to kill multiple people.

    So again...

    Can anyone find one instance where a lone gunman committed a mass shooting in a heavily armed area?

    It seems to me that the most logical way to stop a mass shooter is to encourage people to carry not create more defenseless people.

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    seems, trevr6, you also missed the point i was making that there is no clear consensus on terms, mass shootings, mass killings, number shot, or number killed...

    your statement needs clarification...pure and simple.

    and since your statement lacks clarity...OC's seems pretty clear to me...like the individual claiming to have a firearm concealed during the OR event.

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    In an unscientific survey of ONE, I've had more people than normal notice my OC firearm in the last two months, and quite a few more positive comments than normal, along with extensive questioning. I've always said people are not paying attention, but I think maybe some are waking up. I talked to one family from Cook County, (Chicago) for over an hour about firearms.

    Outside of my immediate family, I don't much care what other people think of my activities as long as they are legal. I see plenty of things daily I don't agree with/like, but I've never called the LE on anyone. My limited experience with LE investigating me as an OC to be overwhelmingly positive. Probably varies by state and maybe even locale? Glad I live where I do!

    I've been called on once, a few years ago. Called was told to not waste 911 resources, I was not even asked for ID. I realize it's not always like that.

    I OC 100 percent of the time where legal. CC at church and if I need to wear a jacket. I don't see that changing for fear of offending someone, or insulting their sensitive feelings.

  18. #18
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by travr6 View Post
    That has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

    These mass shooters tend to pick places where the people are not allowed to defend themselves.

    There have been a few times where a person had give into a police station shooting but they were meet with an immediate response and were unable to kill multiple people.

    So again...

    Can anyone find one instance where a lone gunman committed a mass shooting in a heavily armed area?

    It seems to me that the most logical way to stop a mass shooter is to encourage people to carry not create more defenseless people.
    Here ya go, I'm confident that the answer to your question can be found here. http://momsdemandaction.org/

    Demanding a answer from a bunch of gun nuts who OC...oh kay...
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    seems, trevr6, you also missed the point i was making that there is no clear consensus on terms, mass shootings, mass killings, number shot, or number killed...

    your statement needs clarification...pure and simple.

    and since your statement lacks clarity...OC's seems pretty clear to me...like the individual claiming to have a firearm concealed during the OR event.

    ipse
    No it doesn't. But here you go.

    Lone gunman means ONE

    Mass shooting means 4 or more as used by the fbi and most major news outlets. Hell, I will even give you 3.

    Majority armed location means a place where the majority are knowingly going to be armed like a police station, gun range, nra convention, etc...

    If you need even more specific terms let me know but you can begin with those.




    This is why debates cannot be had. People get side tracked into debating semantics instead of answering a very basic question.
    Last edited by travr6; 10-06-2015 at 11:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    How about this instead: Then again, a mall may have a fair number of people armed and nobody knows they are armed.
    In my experience this is true, it is a felony to violate GFZSA, and many state laws on government property. BUT in many states it is only a misdemeanor trespass offense on private property. Nut cases may be crazy but they are not always stupid.

    I have known many CHP holders in NC who bragged that they carried on private property where they were not allowed, in fact every single one that I knew carried. I am sure the nut cases know some of the same people.

    It is a shame that the FBI does not keep statistics for those almost mass shootings that were stopped, or prevented by a LAC. The only thing that has been proven to stop a mass shooter is force. That force sooner would keep the body count down considerably. But we all know that when seconds count, police are minutes away.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by travr6 View Post
    No it doesn't. But here you go.

    Lone gunman means ONE

    Mass shooting means 4 or more as used by the fbi (1) and most major news outlets. Hell, I will even give you 3.

    Majority armed location means a place where the majority are knowingly going to be armed like a police station, gun range, nra convention, etc...

    If you need even more specific terms let me know but you can begin with those.




    This is why debates cannot be had. People get side tracked into debating semantics instead of answering a very basic question.
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    your right travr6, three (two random souls plus the shooter) lost in a mall environment by a shooter using a rifle, shouldn't meet your criteria. i am glad you have defined the terms as there are quote:

    There are mass murders and mass killings, active shooters and serial killers, mass shootings and mass public shootings.

    The FBI, by contrast, doesn’t have an official definition of “mass shooting” on the books, but in 2014 defined a “mass killing” as one with three or more fatalities...(1)

    ...Mass Shooting Tracker...defines a mass shooting as one with “four or more people shot in one event.”

    ...the Congressional Research Service (CRS) defined a mass shooting as a homicide in which four or more people are killed with firearms—a definition based on the FBI’s definition of a “mass murder” as opposed to a “mass shooting.”

    But other statistics, including a Harvard analysis, show that mass shootings—in which four people were killed....

    (2) The difference between three dead and four dead might be statistically significant, but is morally negligible. Just hours after the Oregon shooting, a man shot dead his wife and two others, and injured a fourth person, in North Florida. On Friday, five people were shot outside a Baltimore shopping center.

    unquote http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...mass-shootings

    you're right, in my cite alledgedly one at least stood up with his firearm.

    ipse
    you can't even agree with what the FBI stated...see the (1) in your quote and the corresponding (1) in my quote?

    and you say i miss the point of your question...

    now see the (2)? five outside a baltimore shopping center...now interject OC4ME's comment!

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Is a shopping center or mall a place where the majority of people are knowingly going to be armed?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by travr6 View Post
    Is a shopping center or mall a place where the majority of people are knowingly going to be armed?
    The majority of people do not carry period. But there have been incidents where CC have intervened in crimes at shopping centers, and malls. I do not go anywhere I cannot carry, unless I have no other choice. From what I have heard from every single CHP holder I have talked to they carry even though it is a misdemeanor if they get caught. I am not advocating it, but it is human nature to weigh the consequences of getting caught to getting killed, or maimed. But all also have said they do not carry where it is a felony.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    In my experience this is true, it is a felony to violate GFZSA, and many state laws on government property. BUT in many states it is only a misdemeanor trespass offense on private property.
    And in some States, there is no crime at all for ignoring a business' "no gun" policy. In Utah, there is a pretty high bar to getting a trespass charge against someone in a business open to the public. The business has to show that the person was doing something to disrupt normal business activities. Of course, in such locations, CCing has the advantage over OCing of avoiding any fuss at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It is a shame that the FBI does not keep statistics for those almost mass shootings that were stopped, or prevented by a LAC.
    That wouldn't help advance any agenda to disarm us, now would it?

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The only thing that has been proven to stop a mass shooter is force. That force sooner would keep the body count down considerably. But we all know that when seconds count, police are minutes away.
    As I channel my inner SkidMark, I'm reminded yet again that I carry a gun to protect my body and the bodies of my immediate family members. Heaven forbid I'm ever near a mass shooting incident, my first choice is to retreat to safety with my family. If that isn't possible, we will shelter in a defensible location. Only if the nutcase brings the fight to me do I plan to engage him. I carry so I and my family can home safely tonight.

    If, in the course of doing that I am forced to take action that "keeps the body count down", that is but a happy side-benefit.

    Obviously, if large numbers of others made a similar choice to train and carry for defense of self and loved ones, the overall effect would be very positive. But that is a choice others have to make for themselves. All I can do is encourage and be a good example.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by travr6 View Post
    Is a shopping center or mall a place where the majority of people are knowingly going to be armed?
    There is almost no place where a majority of people are known to be armed.

    A cop shop is one of the few locations. Many gun stores and pawn shops have a policy of their employees being armed. A hunting club or shooting range will have many armed people; as will a hunting camp. Maybe an NRA or other pro-RKBA convention (depending on in which State/City the convention is held and the local laws in the jurisdiction). And an OC meet/dinner event.

    Other than those? Very unlikely.

    In Utah, we have fully 10% of our adult population with permits to carry. (Twice that number of Utah permits are currently held by non-Utah-residents.) In my experience, probably only 1 in 5 permit holders actually carry on a regular basis. The rest have permits to enable them to carry without some of the complexities or limits on permit-free carry while bow hunting, hiking, or on the rare occasion they sense some extra risk. While OC is legal and quite well accepted socially even in our urban areas (where the vast majority of our population lives), it is rare even in rural areas. I'd estimate that no more than 3% of our adult population is actually armed on a regular basis.

    The fact is, carrying a gun is a hassle. Quite literally a pain in the backside (or at least side-side). Even in very pro-RKBA areas, there are locations off limits including Post Offices and other federal buildings, sometimes churches, sometimes private businesses, etc. Carrying a gun requires far more planning of one's daily events than does not carrying a gun.

    There are only a couple of reasons to accept this burden on a regular basis:

    1-Some internalized risk that justifies the burden.
    2-Some kind of political/religious/cause zeal.

    I expect most of us here are motivated by some combination of the above two. But most of our fellow citizens don't have much of either. Indeed, many cope best with the risks of life by pretending they don't exist. Hence they don't carry adequate life insurance even though it is almost always very affordable.

    We need to avoid confirmation bias or self-selection just as much as others do. If we spend most of our time socializing with or living near those of like mind we might come to the false conclusion that gun possession is far more common than it really is. I know there are rural areas where a gun is usually no farther away than the truck. But the vast majority of this nation's population lives in urban settings.

    Back to the point of your question, while I agree with you in principle, in practice, the locations where people are expected to be armed are so rare that you'd not expect them to be targets very often even if bad guys were as stupid as they are crazy. What is interesting though, is that even some of the anti-government types tend to target locations other than police stations when they decide to go off the rails. Or, if they do target a location with armed officers, they tend to use bombs rather than guns as WalkingWolf has pointed out.

    Charles

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