Gun free zones

travr6 said:

No it doesn't. But here you go.

Lone gunman means ONE

Mass shooting means 4 or more as used by the fbi (1) and most major news outlets. Hell, I will even give you 3.

Majority armed location means a place where the majority are knowingly going to be armed like a police station, gun range, nra convention, etc...

If you need even more specific terms let me know but you can begin with those.




This is why debates cannot be had. People get side tracked into debating semantics instead of answering a very basic question.

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solus said:

your right travr6, three (two random souls plus the shooter) lost in a mall environment by a shooter using a rifle, shouldn't meet your criteria. i am glad you have defined the terms as there are quote:

There are mass murders and mass killings, active shooters and serial killers, mass shootings and mass public shootings.

The FBI, by contrast, doesn’t have an official definition of “mass shooting” on the books, but in 2014 defined a “mass killing” as one with three or more fatalities...(1)

...Mass Shooting Tracker...defines a mass shooting as one with “four or more people shot in one event.”

...the Congressional Research Service (CRS) defined a mass shooting as a homicide in which four or more people are killed with firearms—a definition based on the FBI’s definition of a “mass murder” as opposed to a “mass shooting.”

But other statistics, including a Harvard analysis, show that mass shootings—in which four people were killed....

(2) The difference between three dead and four dead might be statistically significant, but is morally negligible. Just hours after the Oregon shooting, a man shot dead his wife and two others, and injured a fourth person, in North Florida. On Friday, five people were shot outside a Baltimore shopping center.

unquote http://www.newrepublic.com/article/123027/heres-why-no-one-can-agree-number-mass-shootings

you're right, in my cite alledgedly one at least stood up with his firearm.

ipse

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you can't even agree with what the FBI stated...see the (1) in your quote and the corresponding (1) in my quote?

and you say i miss the point of your question...

now see the (2)? five outside a baltimore shopping center...now interject OC4ME's comment!

ipse

Is a shopping center or mall a place where the majority of people are knowingly going to be armed?

travr6 said:

Is a shopping center or mall a place where the majority of people are knowingly going to be armed?

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The majority of people do not carry period. But there have been incidents where CC have intervened in crimes at shopping centers, and malls. I do not go anywhere I cannot carry, unless I have no other choice. From what I have heard from every single CHP holder I have talked to they carry even though it is a misdemeanor if they get caught. I am not advocating it, but it is human nature to weigh the consequences of getting caught to getting killed, or maimed. But all also have said they do not carry where it is a felony.

WalkingWolf said:

In my experience this is true, it is a felony to violate GFZSA, and many state laws on government property. BUT in many states it is only a misdemeanor trespass offense on private property.

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And in some States, there is no crime at all for ignoring a business' "no gun" policy. In Utah, there is a pretty high bar to getting a trespass charge against someone in a business open to the public. The business has to show that the person was doing something to disrupt normal business activities. Of course, in such locations, CCing has the advantage over OCing of avoiding any fuss at all.

WalkingWolf said:

It is a shame that the FBI does not keep statistics for those almost mass shootings that were stopped, or prevented by a LAC.

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That wouldn't help advance any agenda to disarm us, now would it?

WalkingWolf said:

The only thing that has been proven to stop a mass shooter is force. That force sooner would keep the body count down considerably. But we all know that when seconds count, police are minutes away.

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As I channel my inner SkidMark, I'm reminded yet again that I carry a gun to protect my body and the bodies of my immediate family members. Heaven forbid I'm ever near a mass shooting incident, my first choice is to retreat to safety with my family. If that isn't possible, we will shelter in a defensible location. Only if the nutcase brings the fight to me do I plan to engage him. I carry so I and my family can home safely tonight.

If, in the course of doing that I am forced to take action that "keeps the body count down", that is but a happy side-benefit.

Obviously, if large numbers of others made a similar choice to train and carry for defense of self and loved ones, the overall effect would be very positive. But that is a choice others have to make for themselves. All I can do is encourage and be a good example.

Charles

travr6 said:

Is a shopping center or mall a place where the majority of people are knowingly going to be armed?

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There is almost no place where a majority of people are known to be armed.

A cop shop is one of the few locations. Many gun stores and pawn shops have a policy of their employees being armed. A hunting club or shooting range will have many armed people; as will a hunting camp. Maybe an NRA or other pro-RKBA convention (depending on in which State/City the convention is held and the local laws in the jurisdiction). And an OC meet/dinner event.

Other than those? Very unlikely.

In Utah, we have fully 10% of our adult population with permits to carry. (Twice that number of Utah permits are currently held by non-Utah-residents.) In my experience, probably only 1 in 5 permit holders actually carry on a regular basis. The rest have permits to enable them to carry without some of the complexities or limits on permit-free carry while bow hunting, hiking, or on the rare occasion they sense some extra risk. While OC is legal and quite well accepted socially even in our urban areas (where the vast majority of our population lives), it is rare even in rural areas. I'd estimate that no more than 3% of our adult population is actually armed on a regular basis.

The fact is, carrying a gun is a hassle. Quite literally a pain in the backside (or at least side-side). Even in very pro-RKBA areas, there are locations off limits including Post Offices and other federal buildings, sometimes churches, sometimes private businesses, etc. Carrying a gun requires far more planning of one's daily events than does not carrying a gun.

There are only a couple of reasons to accept this burden on a regular basis:

1-Some internalized risk that justifies the burden.
2-Some kind of political/religious/cause zeal.

I expect most of us here are motivated by some combination of the above two. But most of our fellow citizens don't have much of either. Indeed, many cope best with the risks of life by pretending they don't exist. Hence they don't carry adequate life insurance even though it is almost always very affordable.

We need to avoid confirmation bias or self-selection just as much as others do. If we spend most of our time socializing with or living near those of like mind we might come to the false conclusion that gun possession is far more common than it really is. I know there are rural areas where a gun is usually no farther away than the truck. But the vast majority of this nation's population lives in urban settings.

Back to the point of your question, while I agree with you in principle, in practice, the locations where people are expected to be armed are so rare that you'd not expect them to be targets very often even if bad guys were as stupid as they are crazy. What is interesting though, is that even some of the anti-government types tend to target locations other than police stations when they decide to go off the rails. Or, if they do target a location with armed officers, they tend to use bombs rather than guns as WalkingWolf has pointed out.

Charles

It seems like all the gun buster signs around here either have a silhouette of a revolver or a Beretta 92 on them. Since I carry neither I know they're not talking about me so I ignore them. But seriously, if it's not a felony I don't worry about it. I'm not leaving myself defenseless for a damn slurpee. I drop my shirt tail over my pistol and do what I came to. If asked to leave I will without hesitation.

gwhitegm60 said:

I don't carry all the time because of what has happen and what people would think. We still have a lot of anti-gun people out there plus I'm scared of having some idiot calling the police on me if they see me carrying. What is your opinion?

Gregg

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Gregg,

I have been open carrying since the law went int effect Nov 1, 2012. So in the last 3 years, I have had one interaction with LEO who wanted to see my permit, advised of an almost non existent gun buster sign at a business I have not been back to, and yelled at (more like yelled to) by a store employee who didn't know the store policy on firearms (manager found and situation corrected). I have not personally had any negative reactions, other than the officer that license checked me just because he could. No one has called the cops on me, no police prone outs, no beat downs in the street. I have had conversations with several officers while carrying and they didn't bat an eye. Also had positive conversations with several strangers while open carrying.

If someone calls the police on you for participating in a legal activity, it's on them. Do you worry about people calling the police on you just because you drive your car? Do you worry about it going grocery shopping? It's not that big a deal around here.

Two things: 1)Know the law, know what you can and can't do, know what an officer can and can't do. 2)Recognize that the side of the road or the middle of an LEO interaction is not the place to get overly assertive with the officer. Asking for a supervisor is appropriate as well as documenting the interaction and filing a report about it after the fact.