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Thread: The FLag as a political too1 - JUST WRONG!

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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    The FLag as a political too1 - JUST WRONG!

    In the United States, flags are flown at half staff to mark the death of government officials, including members of Congress, as well as on certain holidays, or upon proclamation by the President or Governor due a tragic event.

    This president has turned this privilege/power that he has into a bully pulpit. below is a list of the recent "proclamations" made by the president ordering our nation's flag to be flown at half mast.
    If you go to the source link you can read the proclamations that went with each instance which gives a pretty good insight to the underlying purpose of the decrees. President Lincoln was praiseworthy but even that instance, when you read the text, has more to do with the president's agenda than honoring the man. I have no problem with a day in remembrance of peace officers and fire fighters but even that has been cheapened by the president. The one day of observation for fallen fire fighters is totally engulfed by the FIVE days for the victims of the shooting in Roseburg Oregon. He needs to degree the creation of another flag as the one flag can not keep up with all the opportunities to abuse it. I feel for the families that lost loved ones but do not agree that it is appropriate to "honor" them by flying the flag at half mast for even 10 minutes let alone 5 days! A moment of silence in memory-yes, flag at half mast for 5 days - no.

    source: http://us.halfstaff.org/

    US Flags at Half-Staff in Honor of Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day START: 12/7/2014 END: 12/7/2014 1 day

    US Flags at Half Staff for Abraham Lincoln START: 4/15/2015 END: 4/15/2015 1 day

    US Flags at Half Staff for Peace Officers Memorial Day START: 5/15/2015 END: 5/15/2015 1 day

    US flags at Half-Staff for Memorial Day START: 5/25/2015 END: 5/25/2015 1 day

    US Flags at Half-Staff Honoring the Victims of the Tragedy
    in Chattanooga, Tennessee START: 7/21/2015 END: 7/25/2015 5 days

    Flags at Half Staff for Patriot Day and National Day of Service
    and Remembrance, 2015 START: 9/11/2015 END: 9/11/2015 1 day

    US Flag to Half-Staff Honoring the Victims of the Tragedy in
    Roseburg, Oregon START: 10/2/2015 END: 10/6/2015 5 days

    US Flags to Half Staff National Fallen Firefighters Memorial Service START: 10/4/2015 END: 10/4/2015 1 day
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-07-2015 at 08:21 PM. Reason: delete emoticon from title

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    Next time remember, elections have consequences.

    We all may want, in principle, to vote in favor of a candidate, but we may have to swallow our principles and vote in favor of our image of our nation and against some candidate. I would prefer a nation with the Constitution Party at the helm, but I will vote against a left progressive candidate.

    The Democrat and Republican parties are bad cop/good cop written on the political stage.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    This may not be the first president to use the flag in this manner, I haven't gone back and checked but I am opposed to the practice regardless of party

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    I'm home after two weeks on the road. I have amused myself while driving by noting which flags were and were not at half-staff, a fine implicit political statement (of disdain and contempt for the administration). Locally, home, I saw no flags at half-staff, though we're pretty isolated from the news-culture and mainstream politics.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Damned if they do, damned if they don't. When you refuse to honor the victims (of whatever) out of disdain for the govt., don't try and pass yourself off as a patriot.
    Last edited by beebobby; 10-06-2015 at 02:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    Damned if they do, damned if they don't. When you refuse to honor the victims (of whatever) out of disdain for the govt., don't try and pass yourself off as a patriot.
    (emphasis added)

    See it is the "of whatever" that is the problem here. The nation's flag should be lowered to half staff to mark national days of mourning/remembrance.

    There are over 2 million deaths a year in this nation from all causes combined. There are almost 33,000 automobile related deaths (the lowest number of deaths per vehicle mile traveled since records started being kept back in 1921; so much for claims that raising speed limits among Nixon/Carter's double-nickel would result in mass mayhem on the roads.) There are 41,000 suicides each year. There are over 14,000 homicides each year.

    Which ones represent true days of national mourning, vs which ones are private matters or local affairs. Which ones get politicized?

    A dozen, unarmed victims, left defenseless by (technically illegal) school policy in Oregon become a political cause to attack our guns, while 10 murders a week, week in and week out, in Chicago don't get any mention at all?

    Finally, and to be grossly politically incorrect, what exactly is there to honor about victims of most crimes? Other than choosing to forego preparations to defend themselves in a world where violence is entirely possible, what do most crime victims do to deserve any "honor"? Do they put up a fight? Do they sacrifice themselves to save others? Do they make efforts to prevent others from suffering a similar fate?

    It appears that in the Oregon college murder some of the victims may have been Christians who refused to deny their faith even when confessing their God meant certain death. THAT is honorable. But I doubt that is quite what those making determinations about which deaths should merit national mourning had in mind.

    Frankly, given the way unconstitutional gun bans tend to create the environment in which innocent persons are most likely to be victimized, I might suggest that the most appropriate way to honor the victims of these crimes would be to fly the flag upside down as the recognized symbol of distress. Certainly our constitution is in distress thanks to the liberal belief in a "living" constitution rather than binding the government down with original intent.

    I'll honor the Christian martyrs in my prayers, knowing that those who actually knew them--including their God--will give them the proper honors they deserve. Beyond that, I'll honor my obligations to family, church, community, and self by doing my level best not to become a victim in whose blood freedom hating politicians can dance to try to advance their agenda of tyranny.

    /rant

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Came in thinking I'd disagree with the OP.

    When the government uses it as a political tool as the left and Right do, its wrong.

    When the mundanes do it.....awesome! More power to them.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    I used to get a lump in my throat, etc., etc. at the sight of the flag.

    Then I came to realize the flag is the symbol of a specialized corporation called the federal government. Its not the symbol of America--not unless one chooses to confuse the federal government with society. Nor, is the flag the symbol of the nation--not unless, again, one chooses to confuse the nation with a federal government that has to be watched and guarded against (rights, liberty, and so forth.)

    Its really just a matter of differentiating. What does the flag really represent? Answer: the United States of America (as in the official legal name of the specialized corporation known as the federal government. Check the preamble to the constitution. The end of the last sentence gives the official legal name of the federal government.)

    Think about it: the fedgov has no authority to adopt a flag for "the nation". Nor, does the fedgov have authority to tell private individuals when to half-raise their personal property.

    Near as I can tell, waving the red, white, and blue isn't really supporting the nation--the people. It is support for the fedgov.

    George Carlin used to say [paraphrase]: "The flag is a symbol. And, I leave symbols to the symbol-minded." (say it out loud) While a bit insulting, he did have a point.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrearick View Post
    The FLag as a political too1 - JUST WRONG!

    Are you serious?

    Seriously! Are you serious?

    The flag IS a political tool. It is NOTHING but a political tool.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I used to get a lump in my throat, etc., etc. at the sight of the flag.

    Then I came to realize the flag is the symbol of a specialized corporation called the federal government.
    And so what does represent the country, culture, and the good things about this chunk of real-estate that cause you to remain here rather than seek out various corners of the world that remain mostly free from the evils of government?

    Some, simple minded people look at the Stars and Bars and see a symbol of slavery and oppression. The more enlightened can understand why most who choose to display the Confederate Battle Standard (or the "Battle Flag of the Army or Northern Virginia") do so without any hint of racism, no desire to oppress. For most who display the Stars and Bars, that flag symbolizes something of their culture, their region or homeland, their heritage, perhaps also some desire for less federal meddling in local matters.

    Some who are bitter or who have let some political or religious philosophy overcome all else in their lives look at the Stars and Stripes and see oppression, or some "corporation" or another. Most recognize a symbol of their nation: good and bad, more good than bad, but in any case, their home.

    It is a shame that on a forum dedicated to promoting a constitutionally enumerated right, we have a few folks who just can't let pass an opportunity to rail against the very notion of government. The same Founding Fathers they revere made very clear in the Declaration of Independence that anarchy was not a desired condition. Such "men" as would take offense to the very existence of government, yet find countless reasons to avoid living where there is no government seem to be "savoring the fruit while cursing the vine".

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Are you serious?

    Seriously! Are you serious?

    The flag IS a political tool. It is NOTHING but a political tool.
    Dead serious and anyone who served one day in the military in defense of this nation sees it as more than just a political tool. With over 25 years in uniform and another 15 as a civilian, I believe it is more than just a sound bite or something to be used for partisan politics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrearick View Post
    Dead serious and anyone who served one day in the military in defense of this nation sees it as more than just a political tool. With over 25 years in uniform and another 15 as a civilian, I believe it is more than just a sound bite or something to be used for partisan politics.
    And that's the way it should be. Unfortunately, politicians have been using it as a political tool for years and for many that is all it has become.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrearick View Post
    Dead serious and anyone who served one day in the military in defense of this nation sees it as more than just a political tool. With over 25 years in uniform and another 15 as a civilian, I believe it is more than just a sound bite or something to be used for partisan politics.


    That's my flag, and the republic confederation for which it stands.

    Everything since then is pretty much fubar. + snafu.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 10-06-2015 at 11:18 PM.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Next time remember, elections have consequences.

    We all may want, in principle, to vote in favor of a candidate, but we may have to swallow our principles and vote in favor of our image of our nation and against some candidate. I would prefer a nation with the Constitution Party at the helm, but I will vote against a left progressive candidate.

    The Democrat and Republican parties are bad cop/good cop written on the political stage.
    I'm surprised that you would take such a position. You seem to be voting from a position of defeat, using your vote as a desperate attempt to hit the brakes rather than as a means to turn the wheel in the direction the country needs to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    Damned if they do, damned if they don't. When you refuse to honor the victims (of whatever) out of disdain for the govt., don't try and pass yourself off as a patriot.
    Excuse me? First and foremost, refusing to accept the disdainful practices of the fedgov doesn't in any way amount to refusing to honor the victims, and in fact, as the OP pointed out, the fedgov method that's being rejected is in all likelihood failing to properly honor them. In any case I doubt such refusal really precludes one from being a patriot. You seem to be abusing the word patriot as a political tool as much as the fedgov abuses the flag. "Just participate with the fedgov if you want to be honored and named a patriot" No thanks, you aren't going to trick me into putting the puppet strings back on just so I can get a special label from you.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 10-09-2015 at 07:50 AM.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    Damned if they do, damned if they don't. When you refuse to honor the victims (of whatever) out of disdain for the govt., don't try and pass yourself off as a patriot.
    Disdain for government in no way dishonors victims.

    Typical liberal nonsense.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    SNIP 1) And so what does represent the country,..

    2) Most recognize a symbol of their nation: good and bad, more good than bad, but in any case, their home...

    3) It is a shame that on a forum dedicated to promoting a constitutionally enumerated right...we have a few folks who just can't let pass an opportunity to rail against the very notion of government.
    1. Why would you suppose a symbol associated with government is the only thing that could represent the country?

    2. And, who exactly decided the symbol of the fedgov was the symbol of the nation? (By the way, thank you for proving my point about not differentiating between government and the people it governs.) The government is not the nation. Government and nation are two distinctly different things. Why would you conflate the two?

    3. Please show me where in my post I railed against government. That was your flying leaping of illogic, not mine.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    1. Why would you suppose a symbol associated with government is the only thing that could represent the country?

    2. And, who exactly decided the symbol of the fedgov was the symbol of the nation? (By the way, thank you for proving my point about not differentiating between government and the people it governs.) The government is not the nation. Government and nation are two distinctly different things. Why would you conflate the two?

    3. Please show me where in my post I railed against government. That was your flying leaping of illogic, not mine.
    We should hear about the Fringed Flag of the UCC shortly. I would prefer not to see the fringe, for what ever reason.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    1. Why would you suppose a symbol associated with government is the only thing that could represent the country?

    2. And, who exactly decided the symbol of the fedgov was the symbol of the nation? (By the way, thank you for proving my point about not differentiating between government and the people it governs.) The government is not the nation. Government and nation are two distinctly different things. Why would you conflate the two?

    3. Please show me where in my post I railed against government. That was your flying leaping of illogic, not mine.

    Whats amusing also is when the 2A's actual meaning is discussed the same poster has a fit about that too.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    1. Why would you suppose a symbol associated with government is the only thing that could represent the country?
    Why would you answer my question with a question?

    What symbol do you use to represent your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    2. And, who exactly decided the symbol of the fedgov was the symbol of the nation? (By the way, thank you for proving my point about not differentiating between government and the people it governs.) The government is not the nation. Government and nation are two distinctly different things. Why would you conflate the two?
    I reject your emphatic assertion that a freely elected government is wholly distinct from the populace that chooses their public servants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    3. Please show me where in my post I railed against government. That was your flying leaping of illogic, not mine.

    Your entire post was a rant against government. A claim otherwise at this point is rather unconvincing.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 10-21-2015 at 02:47 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Whats amusing also is when the 2A's actual meaning is discussed the same poster has a fit about that too.
    I'll welcome a citation.

    I also point out the continued childish incivility of referring to others in a half veiled attempt to be oblique rather than directly and honestly.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Why would you answer my question with a question?

    What symbol do you use to represent your country?



    I reject your emphatic assertion that a freely elected government is wholly distinct from the populace that chooses their public servants.




    Your entire post was a rant against government. A claim otherwise at this point is rather unconvincing.

    Charles
    The purpose of government flags is to demark government buildinga so that both the illiterates and those who do not speak the local language can identify government buildings and if they are open or not by looking to see if a flag is flying or not. Gun ranges use much the same indicators.

    Also flags are used as a rally point during field battles. Since we no longer parade onto a battle field anymore part of the purpose of the flag has fallen into disuse and is only a symbolic flag (guide on) use in military shows of flash.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
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    I'm not sure what your post has to do with my post you quoted, Freedom1Man. But in any case, let me respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    The purpose of government flags is to demark government buildinga so that both the illiterates and those who do not speak the local language can identify government buildings and if they are open or not by looking to see if a flag is flying or not.
    Must be tough considering the number of private buildings that also choose to fly the national and State flags.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Also flags are used as a rally point during field battles. Since we no longer parade onto a battle field anymore part of the purpose of the flag has fallen into disuse and is only a symbolic flag (guide on) use in military shows of flash.
    Sometimes used on military uniforms, as well as sometimes on blood chits.

    Frequently used on multi-lingual instruction sheets to allow the reader to quickly identify the section written in the language he reads.

    In our nation the flag is the symbol to which one pledges allegiance rather than to the head of state (eg the English Monarch).

    Flags might be used to identify official state vehicles, or might be flown from private vehicles simply as a display of patriotism or love of nation. Similarly, flags are routinely carried during local parades, and waved by spectators for that same display of patriotism and love of nation.

    Draped over a casket and presented to a deceased's survivors, the flag symbolizes service rendered to the nation.

    Burned, dragged on the ground, or stomped upon, the flag is used as a symbol of dissent, hatred, or antagonism.

    The flag is a symbol. For most of us, it is a symbol of things worthy of respect and honor. Others tend to find far more negativity.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I'm not sure what your post has to do with my post you quoted, Freedom1Man. But in any case, let me respond.



    Must be tough considering the number of private buildings that also choose to fly the national and State flags.



    Sometimes used on military uniforms, as well as sometimes on blood chits.

    Frequently used on multi-lingual instruction sheets to allow the reader to quickly identify the section written in the language he reads.

    In our nation the flag is the symbol to which one pledges allegiance rather than to the head of state (eg the English Monarch).

    Flags might be used to identify official state vehicles, or might be flown from private vehicles simply as a display of patriotism or love of nation. Similarly, flags are routinely carried during local parades, and waved by spectators for that same display of patriotism and love of nation.

    Draped over a casket and presented to a deceased's survivors, the flag symbolizes service rendered to the nation.

    Burned, dragged on the ground, or stomped upon, the flag is used as a symbol of dissent, hatred, or antagonism.

    The flag is a symbol. For most of us, it is a symbol of things worthy of respect and honor. Others tend to find far more negativity.

    Charles
    I was addressing the original use of the flags. But, if history means nothing to you then please ignore me.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I was addressing the original use of the flags. But, if history means nothing to you then please ignore me.
    History is often relevant, but so too is current usage. To ignore current convention is a bit like the radical feminist who refuses to marry because of the history of marriage as exchanging ownership of the woman from father to husband, or those who get uptight about Christmas because of its historic ties to pagan celebrations of winter solstice.

    Neither the history of flags nor current common usage though really have much to do with my exchange with Citizen. Nobody is disputing the history of flags here.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 10-21-2015 at 10:04 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    http://www.miamiok.com/news/article_...e039aa860.html
    300 flags that need to be retired.

    “We will have a ceremony where we will burn them,” said Roy Woods, a Legionnaire and head of the Veterans Funeral Detail. “It's the proper way to dispose of the flag, besides burying them.

    “They have to be burnt with dignity. You cannot burn them in your own trash. A national ceremony must be held to properly dispose of them. It's called retiring the flag.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_D...tion_Amendment

    The Flag Desecration Amendment, often referred to as the Flag-burning Amendment, is a proposed constitutional amendment to the United States Constitution that would allow the United States Congress to prohibit statutorily the physical desecration of the flag of the United States. The concept of flag desecration continues to provoke a heated debate over protecting a national symbol, protecting free speech, and protecting the liberty represented by a national symbol.
    Now THAT is mental illness.

    fire + flag = good [at the same time] fire + flag = bad

    Insanity.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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