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Thread: Scenario question

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    Scenario question

    So, a man has a ranch in Florida. This man has a UTV which he has a gun rack with say a shotgun strapped in. He carries the shotgun on his farm for predators and snakes. He on occasion has to travel on a dirt county road to get to a couple of his fields. This shotgun is loaded but not one in the chamber. At times this man also has on a shoulder holster with a 45 in it. The shoulder holster is visible during summer months. The man does have a Florida Conceal Permit. He is the property owner.

    How many laws is he breaking? This is not a test. I am just wondering if I can legally do this or is some deputy with an attitude going to arrest or ticket me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by purplewg View Post
    [ ... ] is some deputy with an attitude going to arrest or ticket me?
    Welcome to OCDO.

    A cop with an attitude can arrest you for anything he wishes. Then you may beat the rap (the charges) but one cannot beat the ride, that is the extra-legal harassment.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Welcome to OCDO.

    A cop with an attitude can arrest you for anything he wishes. Then you may beat the rap (the charges) but one cannot beat the ride, that is the extra-legal harassment.
    + 1

    only one additional concept to consider...beating the charges is going to take time and $$$$ and your time is $$$

    ipse
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    I hear you. I come from an era when you could and we did, walk into a Krispy Kreme at 5 AM with a pistol on your hip with cops drinking coffee and eating doughnuts. One time one asked if he could see my pistol and he really wanted one.

    It is a shame to good guys have to suffer for the bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by purplewg View Post
    So, a man has a ranch in Florida. This man has a UTV which he has a gun rack with say a shotgun strapped in. He carries the shotgun on his farm for predators and snakes. He on occasion has to travel on a dirt county road to get to a couple of his fields. This shotgun is loaded but not one in the chamber. At times this man also has on a shoulder holster with a 45 in it. The shoulder holster is visible during summer months. The man does have a Florida Conceal Permit. He is the property owner.

    How many laws is he breaking? This is not a test. I am just wondering if I can legally do this or is some deputy with an attitude going to arrest or ticket me?
    Ignoring all the meaningless opinions and conjecture, let's talk about the law, since that's what you asked about.

    Open carry is generally unlawful in Florida. One noted exception that applies in your scenario is open carry at one's home (and it's associated curtilage). That is, the place where you live, or are staying temporarily, like a hotel (not including common areas like hallways, parking lots, etc.)

    Loaded vs unloaded makes no difference in this scenario.

    The CWFL is immaterial as well as the ownership of the property.

    Openly carrying a firearm outside one's home (and it's associated curtilage) is unlawful (except for the other exemptions contained in 790.25(3), like going to/from hunting, camping, fishing, the range, etc.

    One law violated (regardless of how many firearms). Except maybe driving an unlicensed vehicle on public roadways (but I don't think you're asking about that.)
    Last edited by notalawyer; 10-07-2015 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I really don't think he came here to discuss off-road vehicle use on public roadways. But that was very helpful. I'll bookmark it for future reference.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 10-07-2015 at 04:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Ignoring all the meaningless opinions and conjecture, let's talk about the law, since that's what you asked about.

    Open carry is generally unlawful in Florida. One noted exception that applies in your scenario is open carry at one's home (and it's associated curtilage). That is, the place where you live, or are staying temporarily, like a hotel (not including common areas like hallways, parking lots, etc.)

    Loaded vs unloaded makes no difference in this scenario.

    The CWFL is immaterial as well as the ownership of the property.

    Openly carrying a firearm outside one's home (and it's associated curtilage) is unlawful (except for the other exemptions contained in 790.25(3), like going to/from hunting, camping, fishing, the range, etc.

    One law violated (regardless of how many firearms). Except maybe driving an unlicensed vehicle on public roadways (but I don't think you're asking about that.)

    Thanks for the info. I knew I could open carry on my own property. Just a real pain when I have to travel a half mile down the road to another pasture. Then again I am always hunting, going hunting, or wanting to go hunting. lol

    My neighbor stopped a deputy recently while riding his 4 wheeler down the road about checking fences and being on a county road. The deputy said it is illegal but as long as you are not tearing up the road and acting like an idiots no one will say anything except maybe Martha. Apparently Martha goes only by the book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Good read and thanks. The state needs to get up to date though. Many, and I mean MANY farmers and ranches are using either 4 wheels or side by sides now exclusively as agriculture vehicles.

    We should be able (IMHO) be able to at least get a permit for this purpose just so Martha don't bother us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    I really don't think he came here to discuss off-road vehicle use on public roadways. But that was very helpful. I'll bookmark it for future reference.
    So, if we are ever discussing poisonous snake bites I shouldn't mention that an alligator is ready to bite you on your butt? I guess that seems to be the right thing to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by purplewg View Post
    Thanks for the info. I knew I could open carry on my own property. Just a real pain when I have to travel a half mile down the road to another pasture. Then again I am always hunting, going hunting, or wanting to go hunting. lol

    My neighbor stopped a deputy recently while riding his 4 wheeler down the road about checking fences and being on a county road. The deputy said it is illegal but as long as you are not tearing up the road and acting like an idiots no one will say anything except maybe Martha. Apparently Martha goes only by the book.
    Then again I am always hunting, going hunting...
    Hog hunting is legal year round on private property.

    Or you could get a scabbard or a cheap case of some kind. As long as it is closed... Problem solved. (But all you're really doing is trading one section of the statute for another.) Your UTV has a roof, or roll cage or the like, right? So as long as the securely encased firearm is within the 'interior' of the private conveyance, you're good to go.

    That way you can avoid an arrest by Martha when she gives you your ticket for having the UTV on a public road.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 10-07-2015 at 06:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    So, if we are ever discussing poisonous snake bites I shouldn't mention that an alligator is ready to bite you on your butt? I guess that seems to be the right thing to do.


    You could, I suppose, also mention to be on the lookout for lightning around our frequent storms in the summer time here. Or be aware of the mosquitoes, or drunk UTV drivers on the road, or crooked cops, or gypsies, or the rainbow people?


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    I believe UTV is a copyright servicemark of KUBOTA.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post


    You could, I suppose, also mention to be on the lookout for lightning around our frequent storms in the summer time here. Or be aware of the mosquitoes, or drunk UTV drivers on the road, or crooked cops, or gypsies, or the rainbow people?

    The OP did not ask about carrying at one's home (and it's associated curtilage), but you chose to talk about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I believe UTV is a copyright servicemark of KUBOTA.
    In Florida law and many other states it's termed as an all-terrain vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    The OP did not ask about carrying at one's home (and it's associated curtilage), but you chose to talk about it.

    His question was "How many laws an I breaking?" To any reasonable person he was asking about the open carry of a long gun and/or pistol under the conditions explained in his OP, since, obviously, he posted that question on here OpenCarry.org.

    He sounds like a person of average intelligence and I'm sure if he had a question about on-road use of ATVs, UTVs, ROV, or whatever handle you'd like to apply to the type of vehicle, he would not have come here to ask it.

    He said ranch, but although he did not specifically state he lived there (his home) he implied it.

    Therefore in an effort to answer his question I needed to explain the law regarding carrying at his home (as opposed to in his home) and it's associated curtilage (ranch, you know that portion outside of the home itself) it was necessary and prudent to inform him regarding the law about one's "home".

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    His question was "How many laws an I breaking?" To any reasonable person he was asking about the open carry of a long gun and/or pistol under the conditions explained in his OP, since, obviously, he posted that question on here OpenCarry.org.

    He sounds like a person of average intelligence and I'm sure if he had a question about on-road use of ATVs, UTVs, ROV, or whatever handle you'd like to apply to the type of vehicle, he would not have come here to ask it.

    He said ranch, but although he did not specifically state he lived there (his home) he implied it.

    Therefore in an effort to answer his question I needed to explain the law regarding carrying at his home (as opposed to in his home) and it's associated curtilage (ranch, you know that portion outside of the home itself) it was necessary and prudent to inform him regarding the law about one's "home".
    You are working awful hard in trying to justify your response.

    Moving on.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    You are working awful hard in trying to justify your response.

    Moving on.....
    Really? You're that one that brought up the road use laws of these vehicles, then snakes an alligators and your buddy chimes in explaining the copyright of a term and talking about crooked cops.

    How is any of the relevant to a question about open carry?


    Moving on
    Thank god, now perhaps we can have a relevant discussion of the OP's concerns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    ...One noted exception that applies in your scenario is open carry at one's home (and it's associated curtilage)...
    Since this thread is now talking about alligators, snakes, ATVs and the like, I''l just point out that:

    it's = it is
    its = possessive form of "it"

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Since this thread is now talking about alligators, snakes, ATVs and the like, I''l just point out that:

    it's = it is
    its = possessive form of "it"
    Good idea, let's (or is that lets?) add more completely irrelevant, sophomoric, noise to the thread.

    Are you guys getting frisky with the cooler weather?
    Last edited by notalawyer; 10-08-2015 at 05:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Open carry is generally unlawful in Florida. One noted exception that applies in your scenario is open carry at one's home (and it's associated curtilage). That is, the place where you live, or are staying temporarily, like a hotel (not including common areas like hallways, parking lots, etc.)
    Curtilage is generally meant to mean the area immediately around a home, or between a home and outbuildings (if those outbuildings are "reasonably close" to the home). As I understand it, it doesn't necessarily encompass the entire parcel of land on which the home sits.

    So are you saying it is generally illegally in Florida to OC on your own land? What about in one's business property?

    Thanks for the education.

    Charles
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Curtilage is generally meant to mean the area immediately around a home, or between a home and outbuildings (if those outbuildings are "reasonably close" to the home). As I understand it, it doesn't necessarily encompass the entire parcel of land on which the home sits.

    So are you saying it is generally illegally in Florida to OC on your own land? What about in one's business property?

    Thanks for the education.

    Charles
    One may not openly carry (or conceal carry without a CWFL) on his 'own land' unless the land is where he lives.

    I use the term curtlidge, which may not be the most precise, but I generally want to distinguish "property" alone vs property plus out buildings"; and "property one owns" from "at his home".

    So yes the exception that allows one to open carry (and conceal carry without a CWFL) at his home or place of business would include the home itself (the building) and all outbuildings and the property itself surrounding the home (building) that is exclusively under the control of the 'owner' (occupant, tenant, employer, employee, etc.) This exclusivity is used to distinguish from common areas of apartment complexes, hotels/motels, etc. to include their parking lots, and in the OP's case the property he may own a half mile down the street.

    As to 'His or her place of business', it's the same exception that applies to home, to include the property 'around' the business that is exclusive to that business.

    The Peoples case from 1973, the Collins case from 1985, among others, at least one Florida Attorney General Opinion.


    The courts generally align with this statement from the Collins case:
    "Under Florida law, the phrase "at his home or business" refers to an individual's surrounding property as well as the buildings and structures situated thereon."

    These opinions are based on the statute's declaration of policy which in pertinent part states:
    The Legislature finds as a matter of public policy and fact that it is necessary to promote firearms safety and to curb and prevent the use of firearms and other weapons in crime and by incompetent persons without prohibiting the lawful use in defense of life, home, and property,
    Which is quoted in all relevant case law.



    ETA: Now that I read the above, it looks confusing...

    One may carry openly (or concealed without a CWFL) on the property of (and in any buildings situated thereon) the place he lives. If that property is not considered 'common property' such as shared parking lots, apartment/hotel hallways, etc.

    The same applies to someone at his place of business (which the courts have said is the place where he works, interns, volunteers, etc.)
    Last edited by notalawyer; 10-08-2015 at 09:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    One may not openly carry (or conceal carry without a CWFL) on his 'own land' unless the land is where he lives.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    I use the term curtlidge, which may not be the most precise, but I generally want to distinguish "property" alone vs property plus out buildings"; and "property one owns" from "at his home".
    It was the use of term curtilage that had me wondering as that is generally more restrictive than "residential land" or something similar.

    So, ignoring residences with common property (apartments, condos, town homes, etc), under Florida State law a person may OC or CC without a permit in his own home or business and the land on which that sits (and outbuildings on the same land) that is under his exclusive control. Whether he has a 1/10th acre sub-urban lot, or a 10,000 acre ranch, if his home/business sits on it and the land is his, the owner may OC or CC without a permit. Is that correct?

    Can the owner grant visitors the same privilege? Or is it restricted to just the owner and his family?

    Thanks again for the education.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

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    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Thank you.



    It was the use of term curtilage that had me wondering as that is generally more restrictive than "residential land" or something similar.

    So, ignoring residences with common property (apartments, condos, town homes, etc), under Florida State law a person may OC or CC without a permit in his own home or business and the land on which that sits (and outbuildings on the same land) that is under his exclusive control. Whether he has a 1/10th acre sub-urban lot, or a 10,000 acre ranch, if his home/business sits on it and the land is his, the owner may OC or CC without a permit. Is that correct?

    Can the owner grant visitors the same privilege? Or is it restricted to just the owner and his family?

    Thanks again for the education.

    Charles
    Yeah it's a little hard to define without going into a verbose technical explanation.

    the owner may OC or CC without a permit. Is that correct?
    Anyone that lives/works there, Yes (as long as it is one piece of property unlike the OP's case where he had another parcel down the road a piece)

    Can the owner grant visitors the same privilege?
    No. One cannot 'grant' anyone else the right/privilege to violate the law.
    However if there was some other exempted activity occurring on that property, like hunting, fishing, camping, target practice, etc. Then visitors/invitees could carry openly or concealed without a CWFL.

    And before someone calls me on it, all of this is contingent upon the individual not be prohibited from firearms possession by either state or federal law, 18 years of age of older (or younger with parental permission/adult supervision - or not depending on the situation), not 'drunk' (only applies to holding a loaded firearm or shooting it), etc., etc., etc.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 10-09-2015 at 12:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Anyone that lives/works there, Yes (as long as it is one piece of property unlike the OP's case where he had another parcel down the road a piece)

    No. One cannot 'grant' anyone else the right/privilege to violate the law.
    Thank you.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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