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Thread: The Open Carry and Strict Scrutiny bill has been filed

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    The Open Carry and Strict Scrutiny bill has been filed

    The last version of this thread turned into nothing more than a couple of members attacking Florida Carry. That is in clear violation of the rules of the site and is counter to the interests of the community. Therefore, I have deleted the entire thread and have started a new one.

    I am not sure why those few members felt the need to attack Florida Carry but let me say a few things.

    1) Florida Carry is working very hard, both in the courts and in the legislature, to advance the cause of gun rights and open carry in Florida.

    2) I personally know the President of Florida Carry, their lead attorney, and many in their leadership. I consider them friends! They are deserving of our trust and our support!

    3) I know that in a perfect world we would always be looking at unlicensed open carry but rights are lost incrementally and often must be regained the same way. It is better to light a candle than to bitterly curse the darkness.

    4) I will not tolerate this thread becoming a similar attack. I am going to ask Grapeshot to keep a close eye on this thread and will delete any comments I think are out of line.

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Remember that perception of who or what someone else is rests entirely with the perceiver. In other words, we are completely what the other person(s) thinks we are.....to them.

    We are not involved in a sporting event where the one who scores the most points always wins. It is more like a battle in the coliseum, where not receiving a serious injury/mortal blow is more important than whether you have vanquished your protagonist. Perhaps in the final consideration, it (the result) is a combination of the two: points scored and perception. Therein rests the need for diplomacy.

    Style points count. What we think means little if we cannot affect what others think......and how they act. In the meanwhile we must limit/reduce our injuries - this wont be our only battle.

    Now go forward and be fruitful.


    Someone please post an update/status on where this all stands now w/o throwing stones.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-08-2015 at 11:54 AM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member qednick's Avatar
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    We're all supposed to be friends here and aiming for the same things. It's mind-boggling to me why some members feel the need to nit-pick, argue, and generally pooh pooh other member's questions, posts and comments--especially when it comes to newer members. It's almost as if some members feel they're the self-appointed know-it-all-and-therefore-superior-to-you masters of this forum and feel the need to ridicule or belittle others based on their genuine queries or even the state they're located in--maybe just to keep increasing their post count--who knows.

    I've never been to Florida nor do I know anyone who lives there but I can tell you that if Florida are making (or attempting to make) any headway in their legislature then I am 110 per cent behind them and here to cheer them on. Like Texas, Florida may not have the "most ideal" gun laws right now but we have to keep chipping away piece by piece and take things one step at a time. Encouraging people to join in is absolutely key to gaining ground in these processes. By belittling, arguing with, pooh-poohing, or generally picking any kind of fault with any member or their posts is really not in the best interests of this forum or what we're all trying to achieve.

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    I just received a phone call from the Miami Herald / Politifact.com who are verifying the comments concerning crime rates between open carry and non open carry states made by FL state Rep. Matt Gaetz.

    I helped them to understand what open carry is, what the current status is, and to verify the math.

    It will be interesting to see how they handle the data.

  5. #5
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    HB 163/SB 300 has passed it's first committee hearing in the House. Most likely, passing the bill unmolested will not be a problem in the relatively pro 2nd amendment House. SB 300 has to go through the Criminal Justice committee, the Judiciary committee, and Rules, in the Senate. Rules is close, right now it looks 7-6 best case. There are a number of "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT...." republican senators. SB 300 will pass the criminal justice committee 3-2. The chairman of the judiciary committee is anti gun, he will not hear the bill unless there is broad support by fellow republicans (this is Mr Portilla). In its senate path, if it is heard, there will be amendments offered stripping or severely restricting the right to open carry by senator Portilla or Latvala or Dean or possibly by other senators who are new. Defeating those amendments will again require broad support from other republicans. All democrats will be voting no except Mr Abruzzo.

    There are unknowns I (and the rest of the public) don't know about and NRA and Florida Carry are working behind the scenes.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    I personally only questioned certain wordings and tactics. If that was taken to be an attack on an organization, perhaps my motive for asking questions has been misconstrued. Hopefully this is a solid stepping stone for Floridians to regain their rights in the eyes of their oppressors.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    There is a reason I'm not the media spokesperson for Florida Carry, mea culpa.

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Water under bridge...

    Rep. Matt Gaetz did a telephone town hall for constituents tonight. Support of licensed open carry was exceptionally high among the audience. I expect to have a date for the Senate Criminal Justice Committee to hear SB 300, the Senate companion bill by Sen. Don Gaetz, very soon.

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    I agree with the position taken by FL Carry. I know there are some who will push for nothing less than ConCarry, but what's been said is so true. Rights didn't disappear all at once, it came by increments, and that's how we get them back.

    I'm curious though, if passed, what effect this will have on Norman? I know the case wouldn't be mooted necessarily (since this is a criminal case), but do you think it would make the FL Supremes more or less likely to rule for Norman?

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    So what can an average Floridian do to help this legislation along?

    So far I have e-mailed Fl house member Keith Perry and FL senator Charles Dean in support of hb 163 and sb 300 respectively, and asked for thier support of these bills, so far neither has responded.

    What else can be done to move forward open carry in Florida?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raventai View Post
    So what can an average Floridian do to help this legislation along?

    So far I have e-mailed Fl house member Keith Perry and FL senator Charles Dean in support of hb 163 and sb 300 respectively, and asked for thier support of these bills, so far neither has responded.

    What else can be done to move forward open carry in Florida?
    Join Florida Carry.

    You'll get e-mail updates for calls to action as well as more general information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Join Florida Carry.

    You'll get e-mail updates for calls to action as well as more general information.


    I had heard of Florida carry but did not know a lot about them, spent a bit of time looking them up, looks like a good ordination, so I just joined.

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    Regular Member ADulay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raventai View Post
    I had heard of Florida carry but did not know a lot about them, spent a bit of time looking them up, looks like a good ordination, so I just joined.
    Good choice.

    Florida Carry does a LOT of good work and they will keep you informed of important "stuff" as it comes up.

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    http://wlrn.org/post/florida-roundup...carry-gun-bill

    Radio story about the open carry bill starting about the 15 minute mark, includes in studio with the chair of the committee that passed hb163, he seams to allude to a stripping of the strict scrutiny coming, in favor of a plain Jane open carry bill.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADulay View Post
    Good choice.

    Florida Carry does a LOT of good work and they will keep you informed of important "stuff" as it comes up.

    AD
    They do great work. And frustrating work. Fighting anti gunners, their constant lies and love of tyranny, is aggravating and time consuming. At least in California or New Jersey you know your efforts will be in vain and you take solace in your principles. Florida is just pro gun enough to give us glimmers of hope at every turn, only to slam the door in your face and stick to stupid tyranny that endangers lives. It took the NRA 7 years to pass permitted concealed carry, an activity violent criminals participated in without the need for a permit. Fl carry is taking on a much larger task, yet they keep coming. I think they'll all be old men before OC (licensed or not) happens here, so I raise my glass to them. And as always, I hope I'm wrong.
    Last edited by 77zach; 10-11-2015 at 08:03 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    On the Florida roundup radio show on wlrn dot Org, from Oct 9th, starting at the 15 min mark, in studio was the chair of the committee that passed hb 163, he said he expects the strict scrutiny and probable cause to be stripped from the bill.

    Other legislators are asking for retention holsters and retention training in exchange for thier support.

    I tried posting a link to the program yesterday but it is still waiting on moderator approval.
    Last edited by Raventai; 10-12-2015 at 09:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raventai View Post
    On the Florida roundup radio show on wlrn dot Org, from Oct 9th, starting at the 15 min mark, in studio was the chair of the committee that passed hb 163, he said he expects the strict scrutiny and probable cause to be stripped from the bill. Other legislators are asking for retention holsters and retention training in exchange for their support.
    After all those changes what's the point of the bill? In other words the bill has already been defeated and we're just waiting for the coroner to pronounce it officially dead.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    After all those changes what's the point of the bill? In other words the bill has already been defeated and we're just waiting for the coroner to pronounce it officially dead.
    Look to MO if you desire the import of a strict scrutiny clause in the laws/state constitution. MO has gone down this road, back in the mid-80s Jeff City enacted a loophole to ban OC as a town desires. Not may use RSMo 21.750.3 but the ones that do are in the major populace hubs. MO is a unlicensed OC state.

    Our new strict scrutiny resides in our 2A analog of the MO Constitution. http://moga.mo.gov/MoStatutes/ConstHTML/A010231.html

    We now have OC statewide with a endorsement where required due to town using 21.750.3. http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/statht...tml?&me=21.750

    If OC with a permit is enacted in FL get a permit and OC. Floridians cannot OC now...except for the fishing/hunting thing.

    FL Carry seems to be on top of these efforts and your support of their efforts is critical at this juncture.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    --snipped--

    If OC with a permit is enacted in FL get a permit and OC. Floridians cannot OC now...except for the fishing/hunting thing.

    FL Carry seems to be on top of these efforts and your support of their efforts is critical at this juncture.
    In the strongest terms possible - Yes, it most assuredly is.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Look to MO if you desire the import of a strict scrutiny clause in the laws/state constitution. MO has gone down this road, back in the mid-80s Jeff City enacted a loophole to ban OC as a town desires. Not may use RSMo 21.750.3 but the ones that do are in the major populace hubs. MO is a unlicensed OC state.

    Our new strict scrutiny resides in our 2A analog of the MO Constitution. http://moga.mo.gov/MoStatutes/ConstHTML/A010231.html

    We now have OC statewide with a endorsement where required due to town using 21.750.3. http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/statht...tml?&me=21.750

    If OC with a permit is enacted in FL get a permit and OC. Floridians cannot OC now...except for the fishing/hunting thing.

    FL Carry seems to be on top of these efforts and your support of their efforts is critical at this juncture.
    NOT to diminish the passage of Amendment 5 and the upgraded 21.750, but Floridians need to learn from MO as well as looking there for inspiration.

    Regarding the MO constitutional change, you will find the strongest RKBA statement of any state, on paper. What you will also find is a state Supreme Court that has decimated the new wording that Amendment 5 has brought to Article 1, Section 23 of the MO Constitution.

    Take a look here: http://www.mofreedom.org/2015/09/fre...-self-defense/
    Last edited by BB62; 10-12-2015 at 02:12 PM. Reason: correct spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    After all those changes what's the point of the bill? In other words the bill has already been defeated and we're just waiting for the coroner to pronounce it officially dead.
    This has not happened yet, it's what some law makers think may happen, and possibly something we need to work against to keep what we want in the bill.

    Our maybe we take pain Jane open carry bill now and work for more later if we have to?

  22. #22
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    After all those changes what's the point of the bill? In other words the bill has already been defeated and we're just waiting for the coroner to pronounce it officially dead.
    Correct, but this will have to come up many times before it passes, just like with concealed carry.
    Last edited by 77zach; 10-12-2015 at 05:30 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    So what is the actual time frame of all this?

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taymag View Post
    So what is the actual time frame of all this?
    The next committee hearing is on Oct 20th. The legislative session is over March 5th(ish).

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    I've never bought salad dressing in my entire life.

    As much as I disagree with so many things, I do hope I'll need to buy some for that word salad I promised to eat if Floriduh turned Yellow. I did amend that dictum to include Green, even though that's not good enough.

    I may be a harsh (and possibly senile) critic, but I'm not the enemy.
    Last edited by ixtow; 10-12-2015 at 08:22 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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