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Thread: Alarmed, with good reason! Senator Green's Senate Bill 442 criminalizes Open Carry

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    Alarmed, with good reason! Senator Green's Senate Bill 442 criminalizes Open Carry

    Ok, so I've dived into Senator Green's bill and it is a horribly written piece of legislation. I've just gotten off the phone with Senator Green's office and it doesn't appear that he is going to back down. I'll mention some of the negative highlights here as well as provide Senator Green's contact information below. Please call and make your voice heard. The staffer working on SB44 is named Nick and he will take the time to listen to your concerns. However, despite his patience, I got the impression that they are still planning to criminalize the exercise of your Constitutional right to open carry, not just in Schools, but in ALL pistol-free zones!


    Tell Senator Green to pass a clean bill eliminating pistol-free zones entirely! We are not willing to trade one right for a privilege. But SB 442 is worse than that. The devil is truly in the details and here is a frightening legal analysis:

    http://www.miopencarry.org/news/2015...us-Sloppy-Mess

    Mailing Address:
    Senator Mike Green
    P.O. Box 30036
    Lansing, MI 48909-7536

    By Phone (ask for Nick)
    (517) 373-1777 or toll free at (866) 305-2131

    By Fax:
    (517) 373-5871

    By Email:
    http://www.statesenatormikegreen.com/contact-me/

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Smoke, mirrors, and hanging ropes too.

    Have no doubt but that Green knows exactly what he is trying to do.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    If I'm reading this thing right, it just criminalizes carrying a gun into a GFZ. It looks to me like they are amending the law to say you can't open carry there at all, and can only conceal with a special exemption. But it doesn't repeal the part about not being able to carry concealed in those areas.

    Either that or my brain just hurts from trying to decipher all that legalese BS.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/in...art_river_home

    Here's a bit about it on MLive. I've sent Mlive a note about my annoyance with LAC's carrying being lumped in with the criminal students that bring guns into school.

    I find it totally incomprehensible that these moronic politicians think that people hiding their weapons is better than faculty and staff knowing that there is an armed person on site. As a father of an elementary age child, I actually would rather have people OC'ing in schools as opposed to CC'ing.

    Contact your reps and tell them to stop this bill.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

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    "My constituents are very upset about open carry in schools and when I talked to them about this switching open carry for concealed carry by people who are licensed and trained they really liked the idea," Jones said.

    I'm going to guess that he didn't inform his constituents that the people open carrying are ALSO licensed with CPLs?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffrey-r View Post
    --snipped--
    I'm going to guess that he didn't inform his constituents that the people open carrying are ALSO licensed with CPLs?
    Note true. I'm going to guess that you are confusing license to purchase with having a concealed pistol license.

    Open Carry in Michigan w/out a CPL
    :
    A person without a CPL can legally open carry a pistol as long as the pistol they are carrying has been lawfully purchased in accordance with MCL 28.422 and is registered in their name and they are at least 18 years of age. Without a CPL you may NOT carry a firearm that belongs to and is registered to someone other than yourself.

    MCL 28.422(1) states that “except as otherwise provided in this act, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.”

    As the above cited law states a person may not carry or possess a firearm without obtaining it in accordance with that particular law. Therefore if you have obtained a firearm in accordance with MCL 28.422 by receiving a permit to purchase or by purchasing a firearm from a Federal Firearms Licensed dealer as the law dictates then you may lawfully open carry that pistol.

    http://www.michiganopencarry.org/ocinfo/nocpl
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    since i think jeffery-r is talking about the official that is talking about,, OCing in a School.
    . He is quite right!


    the many GFZs do not apply to CPL holders..
    the CPL has a list of GFZs where a CPL holder may NOT conceal!
    therefor,,,, a CPL holder may OC in many of those places, including schools!

    simple holders of pistol purchase permits can Not carry in those places!
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 10-14-2015 at 10:31 AM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I will defer to the locals on the subect, particularly since my boots are not on the ground there.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Alarmed, with good reason! Senator Green's Senate Bill 442 criminalizes Open...

    Thanks from MILLIONS of lawful carriers to Senator Green...:NOT! This bill as written, will definitely make our decisions on visiting MI easier. We will avoid it, when possible. If this bill (mess), is a indicator where MI is heading: in the wrong direction when it comes to laws that not only aide its population to better defend themselves against violence, it makes it worse for tourists.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 10-12-2015 at 09:12 PM.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Alarmed, with good reason! Senator Green's Senate Bill 442 criminalizes Open...

    Ah pure MI .... Politics!!!

    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 10-12-2015 at 09:06 PM.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Thanks from MILLIONS of lawful carriers to Senator Green...:NOT! This bill as written, will definitely make our decisions on visiting MI to easier. We will avoid it when possible. If this bill (mess), is a indicator where MI is heading: in the wrong direction when it comes to laws that not only aide its population to better defend themselves against violence, it makes it worse for tourists.
    Agreed with all, especially the bold.... I rarely have reason to go in those PFZ but I OC 99%+ of the time and if this does pass I will be looking to move south if I can afford it, possibly all the way down to that haven you call home now.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Come on down Fozzy!
    We welcome people who value freedom & the constitution
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Alarmed, with good reason! Senator Green's Senate Bill 442 criminalizes Open...

    An after thought for the Senator: why when many states are moving towards less restrictive gun laws, would you think this bill is a good idea for MI? Are its "fictional" gun free zones overflowing with murders that OPEN CARRY? I must have missed that on the news???

    PS - this guy sits on the board of directors of a gun group? Man! With friends like that....
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 10-12-2015 at 09:23 PM.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    An after thought for the Senator: why when many states are moving towards less restrictive gun laws, would you think this bill is a good idea for MI? Are its "fictional" gun free zones overflowing with murders that OPEN CARRY? I must have missed that on the news???

    PS - this guy sits on the board of directors of a gun group? Man! With friends like that....
    "Legislatively, with CPL Reform now signed into law, we’ve moved on to tackling pistol free zones. Senator Green has introduced Senate Bill 442 which will provide a shall-issue general exemption for pistol free zones to all concealed pistol license holders. This is a huge step forward he hopes can be accomplished while Governor Snyder remains in office and which will eventually lead to the outright elimination of most pistol free zones. These shall-issue general exemptions do not compromise preemption, do not require any additional training, can be requested by any CPL holder, and will greatly expand the number of people carrying concealed in pistol free zones. There will be no additional cost to receive the exemption other than a $20 replacement fee for a concealed pistol license if the exemption is requested prior to your next CPL renewal."
    http://mcrgo.org/executive-directors-message/

    http://mcrgo.org/
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Alarmed, with good reason! Senator Green's Senate Bill 442 criminalizes Open...

    ^ that's rubbish! From what I'm being told by folks that know this bill (in its current form) and have reviewed it in great detail.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 10-12-2015 at 10:38 PM. Reason: Caveat
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffrey-r View Post
    "My constituents are very upset about open carry in schools and when I talked to them about this switching open carry for concealed carry by people who are licensed and trained they really liked the idea," Jones said.

    I'm going to guess that he didn't inform his constituents that the people open carrying are ALSO licensed with CPLs?
    Of course not. It doesn't serve the agenda. :/
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    ^ that's rubbish! From what I'm being told by folks that know this bill (in its current form) and have reviewed it in great detail.
    Don't shoot the messenger. I didn't endorse or refute the "official" statement. Just reporting it for all to see.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I will defer to the locals on the subect, particularly since my boots are not on the ground there.
    To Expand on 1245A's response and to fully answer your inquiry, Grape, the way the current law reads here in MI actually PROHIBITS concealed carry in schools, and allows open carry by CPL holders because it says absolutely nothing about it. Hence the mass of legal fights around the state over it. The Anti's call it a loophole, I call it built in safeguards.

    We don't need new laws. This bill needs to slapped down hard. There have only been a few school shootings in Michigan.

    Feb 12, 1976 Murray-Wright High School, Detroit (5 wounded)
    Feb 22, 1978 Everett High School (the shooter was a self proclaimed Nazi) Lansing (1 dead, 1 wounded)
    Apr 20, 1984 Precious Blood School, Detroit (1 dead)
    Oct 18, 1985 Murray-Wright, Detroit (6 wounded)
    Apr 16, 1987 Murray-Wright, Detroit (1 dead, 2 wounded)
    Dec 17, 1993 Chelsea High, Chelsea (faculty only involved, 1 dead, 2 wounded)
    Feb 29, 2000 Buell Elementary School, Flint (1 dead)

    There have been a couple at universities, and one drive by at a Detroit school, and one in Flint that I didn't list because they don't directly reflect on this subject.

    What gets me is when you look at the cases. Not one (save possibly the Chelsea incident, not a lot of info on that) was committed by a CPL holding law abiding citizen. Another thing, all these shootings were committed in a time when the laws in Michigan were more stringent and it was harder to get a CPL. How many incidents of students bringing CONCEALED guns to school are there? Many more, I assure you, including one very recent one at my old HS. LAC's are the very least of their worries.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Don't shoot the messenger. I didn't endorse or refute the "official" statement. Just reporting it for all to see.
    Snark was aimed at the ridiculous statement made by him. Not aimed at you Grape. Sorry for not being clearer in that post.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Wowwie!!!

    the thread was started with an "official statement" by MOC, Michigan Open Carry...
    it is their thread,,, and they really dont like this law!
    then,,,,
    an "official statement" by MCRGO, Michigan Committee of Responsible Gun Owners...
    they really like this new law.

    they are both in Michigan..
    MCRGO is the old gun group,,, but they did not / do not support Open Carry as well as many wanted,,,
    Sooo,
    MOC splintered off,, to the betterment of ALL gun / 2A supporters of Michigan,
    especially those of them, and all of us that may want to visit that support
    the right of the people to keep and bear arms,, concealed or OPENLY!!

    this proposed law is not good for Open Carry Anywhere,
    its terms and restrictions are an affront
    to any and all gun right supporters anywhere they may live!


    AND,,, also MGO, Michigan Gun Owners are also against this law,, they dont like it!

    now im a little confused about which group was first, second or third...
    I wont even mention UFO, Unified Firearm Owners,,, it never caught on..
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 10-14-2015 at 10:41 AM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  21. #21
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Here is a link we've posted here before with a bunch of pre written letters you can send your reps. If you guys haven't hounded them yet now is the time. http://michigancarries.org/2015/07/s...artial-oc-ban/
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    1245, mcrgo was founded by grassroots activists who got shall issue passed. Collectivists then took hold, people got pissed, and mgo happened. We started moc actually after that, when interestingly mcrgo hadalready bashed open carry so we knew we were on our own. Then of course in 2012 when moc was temporarily in bed with Mike Green and mcrgo for an oc ban with much drama, that was when myself and others more or less kind of ran out of uses for moc and set out to rebuild a new activism effort immune to the old problems we now have perfect hindsight on.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Master Control's Avatar
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    bump
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  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    --snipped--

    This thread is written in the Michigan sub forum,
    about Machigan,
    for michigan!!

    but you just keep poking your unknowing nose into their business..
    For shame and not a little bit insulting. That surprises me.

    Apparently, it is your opinion that only some people should be able to post and understand what is going on here.

    BTW - all of OCDO is my business and all of OCDO is available to all member/users.

    Patience with others and cordiality (not insulting them) would be a good thing.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    As the OP, the point of this thread was to rally everyone to CALL and EMAIL Senator Green's office. Please do so, thank you all!

    Be polite and courteous but firm ;-)

    Suggest that a clean bill simply repealing PFZs would be better than the convoluted mess that SB 442 is. Honestly, I don't know why politicians can't sponsor clean bills. A simple "PFZs are hereby repealed" is all it takes. SB 442 doesn't actually repeal PFZs at all, but simply adds an exemption for enhanced CPL holders while criminalizing open carry which is now perfectly legal.
    Last edited by OC4me; 10-13-2015 at 10:27 AM.

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