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Thread: GOP Kremer/LeMaheu bill would allow concealed guns in Wisconsin college buildings

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    GOP Kremer/LeMahieu bill would allow concealed guns in Wisconsin college buildings

    The proposed legislation from Rep. Jesse Kremer and Sen. Devin LeMahieu comes less than two weeks after a gunman killed nine people at a community college in Oregon.

    Under current law, license holders can carry guns on the grounds of public colleges and universities. But the schools are allowed to ban weapons inside campus buildings. The University of Wisconsin-Madison is one school that has posted signs banning weapons at entrances to every building on campus.

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepo...332355482.html
    Last edited by Nightmare; 10-14-2015 at 12:29 PM.
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    I wouldn't encourage anyone to break the law. But I wonder if we wouldn't be better off if it became a well known fact that going armed into places that are posted is not a crime? It is a state forfeiture. That's not a crime, one cannot be sent to jail for it. In fact, unless the municipality adopted it as an ordinance only state law enforcement officers can enforce a state forfeiture. (One also cannot be sent to jail for violating local ordinances.) The worst that can happen is a fine max of $1K. I'm surprised at how many in the general public think violating those signs is a serious offense. Unless it's at a place like a court house, it isn't.

    If you are carrying concealed how would anyone know? If you used it to save your life what would you care about a fine?
    Once it became ingrained that those signs had no more bite than a parking ticket and people were carrying anyway, perhaps they would come down and we could end that sillyness.

    Criminals ignore the signs, but you are not a criminal for ignoring it. A state forfeiture is not a crime.

    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, I am not telling you to break the law.

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    Update turned the article into an anti-gun omnibus, every trope and meme trotted out.

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    Complications

    Looking at the proposed text - it does not pertain only to concealed carry but rather possession or carry of any sort. The only option for those at least 18 but less than 21 years of age is open carry. Probably a moot point since for a non-licensee, carrying in a public building is a Class A misdemeanor. Just because the trespass changes does not mean that other laws such as Wis. Stat. 941.235 cannot be enforced. Does that alter anyone's opinion? As to your comment on the penalty for a licensee, once you are identified as someone who might be CC'ing, you would be subject to scrutiny. I don't know about you but more than one $1000 forfeiture would be painful for most folks. Plus having civil forfeitures on your record can adversely impact future employment opportunities. The bite is (or can be) much bigger than a parking ticket.


    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    I wouldn't encourage anyone to break the law. But I wonder if we wouldn't be better off if it became a well known fact that going armed into places that are posted is not a crime? It is a state forfeiture. That's not a crime, one cannot be sent to jail for it. In fact, unless the municipality adopted it as an ordinance only state law enforcement officers can enforce a state forfeiture. (One also cannot be sent to jail for violating local ordinances.) The worst that can happen is a fine max of $1K. I'm surprised at how many in the general public think violating those signs is a serious offense. Unless it's at a place like a court house, it isn't.

    If you are carrying concealed how would anyone know? If you used it to save your life what would you care about a fine?
    Once it became ingrained that those signs had no more bite than a parking ticket and people were carrying anyway, perhaps they would come down and we could end that sillyness.

    Criminals ignore the signs, but you are not a criminal for ignoring it. A state forfeiture is not a crime.

    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, I am not telling you to break the law.
    Last edited by apjonas; 10-14-2015 at 12:09 PM. Reason: add

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    Just One More Thing...

    You stated:

    "In fact, unless the municipality adopted it as an ordinance only state law enforcement officers can enforce a state forfeiture."

    I was unaware of this restriction. Could you point me to the statute that is the basis for it? I know you are a (former?) LEO and I am not disputing the correctness of your statement. I only want to do some research. Thanks!


    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    I wouldn't encourage anyone to break the law. But I wonder if we wouldn't be better off if it became a well known fact that going armed into places that are posted is not a crime? It is a state forfeiture. That's not a crime, one cannot be sent to jail for it. In fact, unless the municipality adopted it as an ordinance only state law enforcement officers can enforce a state forfeiture. (One also cannot be sent to jail for violating local ordinances.) The worst that can happen is a fine max of $1K. I'm surprised at how many in the general public think violating those signs is a serious offense. Unless it's at a place like a court house, it isn't.

    If you are carrying concealed how would anyone know? If you used it to save your life what would you care about a fine?
    Once it became ingrained that those signs had no more bite than a parking ticket and people were carrying anyway, perhaps they would come down and we could end that sillyness.

    Criminals ignore the signs, but you are not a criminal for ignoring it. A state forfeiture is not a crime.

    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, I am not telling you to break the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    I wouldn't encourage anyone to break the law. But I wonder if we wouldn't be better off if it became a well known fact that going armed into places that are posted is not a crime? It is a state forfeiture. That's not a crime, one cannot be sent to jail for it. In fact, unless the municipality adopted it as an ordinance only state law enforcement officers can enforce a state forfeiture. (One also cannot be sent to jail for violating local ordinances.) The worst that can happen is a fine max of $1K. I'm surprised at how many in the general public think violating those signs is a serious offense. Unless it's at a place like a court house, it isn't.

    If you are carrying concealed how would anyone know? If you used it to save your life what would you care about a fine?
    Once it became ingrained that those signs had no more bite than a parking ticket and people were carrying anyway, perhaps they would come down and we could end that sillyness.

    Criminals ignore the signs, but you are not a criminal for ignoring it. A state forfeiture is not a crime.

    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, I am not telling you to break the law.
    You shouldn't have said that. It is a crime with a fine for, now. We second class citizens don't want to forfeit anything... nothing.. not even our money, no records... nada.
    Last edited by Law abider; 10-14-2015 at 01:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    You shouldn't have said that. It is a crime with a fine for, now.
    Carrying in a posted business is either a state forfeiture or a local ordinance violation. Every municipality and county I know of adopted the forfeiture as a local ordinance so they can enforce it. An ordinance is not a crime in Wisconsin. You cannot be sentenced to jail for an ordinance violation.

    I am not an attorney, this is not legal advice.
    Last edited by pkbites; 10-14-2015 at 02:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    I don't know about you but more than one $1000 forfeiture would be painful for most folks.
    Look at the scenario I presented. You just saved your own life by having to use a firearm. You're alive. Would you really be bummed about getting a municipal ticket for having a weapon in a posted store? This is a question about risks and rewards to that risk.

    This is not legal advice, do not break the law.
    Last edited by pkbites; 10-14-2015 at 02:10 PM.

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    Wisconsin 939 defines misdemeanors and felonies.

    You cannot go to jail for a forfeiture alone.

    Also, every county and municipality I know of adopted the forfeiture as an ordinance. An ordinance is not a crime. One cannot be sentence to jail for it in Wisconsin.

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    But that's only part of the equation

    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Wisconsin 939 defines misdemeanors and felonies.

    You cannot go to jail for a forfeiture alone.

    Also, every county and municipality I know of adopted the forfeiture as an ordinance. An ordinance is not a crime. One cannot be sentence to jail for it in Wisconsin.
    What about Wis. Stat. 941.235? In reality, this proposal just allows licensees to carry into campus buildings. They can already carry on the grounds and in parking structures. I would guess that most would choose to carry concealed. It really has nothing to do with an 18 year old freshman. If you are not a licensee then you either open carry and get charged with a misdemeanor under 941.235 or conceal and possibly get charged with 941.23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    What about Wis. Stat. 941.235? In reality, this proposal just allows licensees to carry into campus buildings. They can already carry on the grounds and in parking structures. I would guess that most would choose to carry concealed. It really has nothing to do with an 18 year old freshman. If you are not a licensee then you either open carry and get charged with a misdemeanor under 941.235 or conceal and possibly get charged with 941.23.
    Alright, you are right in that case.

    But if you are a licensee you can only get charged with either a local ordinance or state forfeiture if the place is posted, not the misdemeanor. And that law doesn't count in private businesses/colleges that I'm including in my rant.

    Be warned, though. UW police constitute state law enforcement officers for the purpose of state forfeitures. As do DNR wardens and sworn rangers, state patrol, capitol police, state fair police, etc.. But every most of those have separate ordinances for the jurisdiction they patrol and the fines are generally under $400. And they are not crimes.

    This is not legal advice, I am not a lawyer, don't break the law.
    Last edited by pkbites; 10-14-2015 at 06:27 PM.

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    Clarification, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Alright, you are right in that case.

    But if you are a licensee you can only get charged with either a local ordinance or state forfeiture if the place is posted, not the misdemeanor. And that law doesn't count in private businesses/colleges that I'm including in my rant.

    Be warned, though. UW police constitute state law enforcement officers for the purpose of state forfeitures. As do DNR wardens and sworn rangers, state patrol, capitol police, state fair police, etc.. But every most of those have separate ordinances for the jurisdiction they patrol and the fines are generally under $400. And they are not crimes.

    This is not legal advice, I am not a lawyer, don't break the law.
    Could you please clarify - who may arrest/charge and which court hears cases for

    a. An act that is a violation only of a state statute (whether criminal or forfeiture)?
    b. An act that is a violation of a state statute AND a violation of a municipal ordinance (including state statutes incorporated by reference)?
    c. An act that is a violation only of a municipal ordinance (including state statutes that are incorporated by reference)?

    In the case of "b" - who determines which law will be used?

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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    Could you please clarify - who may arrest/charge and which court hears cases for

    a. An act that is a violation only of a state statute (whether criminal or forfeiture)?
    b. An act that is a violation of a state statute AND a violation of a municipal ordinance (including state statutes incorporated by reference)?
    c. An act that is a violation only of a municipal ordinance (including state statutes that are incorporated by reference)?

    In the case of "b" - who determines which law will be used?

    I can not give legal advice, I am not an attorney. You need to research this stuff on you're own. No offense intended, but you'll be surprised at how little you know, and what you think you know is wrong.

    For example, though, a Milwaukee County Sheriffs Deputy can arrest someone for a state crime or a county ordinance violation in, say, Franklin, but cannot arrest them for a Franklin city ordinance. He has no authority to do so unless he is also a sworn peace officer in Franklin. In reverse, in some counties the Sheriff deputizes every peace officer in the county regardless of what city/village/town they work for. This clears some of this up in case of a conflict of law.

    You are probably already aware that all county, city, village, and township ordinances are adopted from state law so it doesn't matter. It's a rare thing for a city/village/town/county to have ordinances that the other doesn't have. There are few, if any, state laws/forfeitures that don't exist in local ordinance. Please tell me the last time someone was charged with a state forfeiture that occurred under the jurisdiction of anyone but state law enforcement.

    It has a lot to do with money. A county or municipality hates charging a state offense when they have an ordinance for the same offense because the fine money mostly then goes to the state and not them. This changes when the K.I.A.D. desperately needs to spend some time in jail. Sometimes letting the K.I.A.D. sit on his donkey in crowbar hotel for a state crime is better than whatever fine money they'd get from him. Ordinance violations cannot end in a jail sentence.

    About 4-5 years ago there was talk of changing state law to allow any peace officer to enforce state forfeitures. As far as I know this did not go through. I don't recall seeing anything on my legal update sheet. If I missed it and it happened, I'm sure Nightmare will be around soon to correct me.

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    Which Law - Followup

    Thanks for the response, it helped. It should be clear that I am not asking for legal advice nor taking what you say as legal advice (that would be something like "I received a ticket from the City of Racine for a violation of state law - can they do that?") I was asking you to answer some general questions using your knowledge and experience, which you did. I know very little, no surprise at all - that is why I asked. I haven't found a good source that summarizes the relationship between the various levels of government, laws and the court system. If you know of one please post a citation. Regarding your comments, some structure might help me. Note that I am saying "can" (has the authority) not "would."

    Can a Franklin City PD officer arrest in the city of Franklin for a violation of a city ordinance. - Obviously, Yes.
    For a violation of a Milwaukee county ordinance? Only if sworn by sheriff?
    For a violation of state law (forfeiture)? No, but can for parallel city ordinance.
    For a violation of state law (criminal)? No??

    Can a Franklin City PD officer arrest in Milwaukee County (outside of the city of Franklin, say West Allis)
    For a violation of a county ordinance? Only if sworn by sheriff.
    For a violation of state law (forfeiture)? No...but what about parallel West Allis ordinance?
    For a violation of state law (criminal)? No??

    Can a Franklin City PD officer arrest in Wisconsin (outside of Milwaukee County - say Waukesha County)
    For a violation of a county ordinance? (in Mukwonago) If sworn - can he be sworn in different county?
    For a violation of a city ordinance? (in the city of Waukesha) No.
    For a violation of state law (forfeiture)? No.
    For a violation of state law (criminal)? No.

    Can a Milwaukee County Deputy arrest in the city of Franklin for a violation of a city ordinance? - No (unless sworn there).
    For a violation of a county ordinance? - Yes.
    For a violation of state law (forfeiture)? - Yes.
    For a violation of state law (criminal)? - Yes.

    Can a state trooper arrest anywhere in Wisconsin? For any type of violation?

    The interesting question is for a violation which is both a state law violation and a municipal ordinance violation, does the charge (and thus possible punishment) depend on which LEO happens to come along first?

    Since a LEO cannot (should not?) allow unlawful behavior to continue, what does the City of Franklin officer do if he witness a violation in Brown County? Detain and call the local gendarmes?

    Sorry if this is too complicated, give it your best effort.

    You're going to have to break out K.I.A.D. for me...

    P.S. How does 2005 Act 414 relate to all this?


    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    I can not give legal advice, I am not an attorney. You need to research this stuff on you're own. No offense intended, but you'll be surprised at how little you know, and what you think you know is wrong.

    For example, though, a Milwaukee County Sheriffs Deputy can arrest someone for a state crime or a county ordinance violation in, say, Franklin, but cannot arrest them for a Franklin city ordinance. He has no authority to do so unless he is also a sworn peace officer in Franklin. In reverse, in some counties the Sheriff deputizes every peace officer in the county regardless of what city/village/town they work for. This clears some of this up in case of a conflict of law.

    You are probably already aware that all county, city, village, and township ordinances are adopted from state law so it doesn't matter. It's a rare thing for a city/village/town/county to have ordinances that the other doesn't have. There are few, if any, state laws/forfeitures that don't exist in local ordinance. Please tell me the last time someone was charged with a state forfeiture that occurred under the jurisdiction of anyone but state law enforcement.

    It has a lot to do with money. A county or municipality hates charging a state offense when they have an ordinance for the same offense because the fine money mostly then goes to the state and not them. This changes when the K.I.A.D. desperately needs to spend some time in jail. Sometimes letting the K.I.A.D. sit on his donkey in crowbar hotel for a state crime is better than whatever fine money they'd get from him. Ordinance violations cannot end in a jail sentence.

    About 4-5 years ago there was talk of changing state law to allow any peace officer to enforce state forfeitures. As far as I know this did not go through. I don't recall seeing anything on my legal update sheet. If I missed it and it happened, I'm sure Nightmare will be around soon to correct me.
    Last edited by apjonas; 10-15-2015 at 08:12 PM. Reason: add

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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    Can a Franklin City PD officer arrest in the city of Franklin for a violation of a city ordinance. - Obviously, Yes.
    For a violation of a Milwaukee county ordinance? Only if sworn by sheriff?
    For a violation of state law (forfeiture)? No, but can for parallel city ordinance.
    For a violation of state law (criminal)? No??
    Any peace officer can enforce state laws. Just not forfeitures. They were talking about changing that law, but I don't recall receiving that in any of my legal updates. If they did I'll welcome the correction.

    It's irrelevant. Virtually all counties, cities, villages, and towns have adopted state laws and forfeitures as ordinances.

    State law allows an off duty peace officer from Wisconsin outside his jurisdiction (but still within Wisconsin) from taking action/making arrests. But the law mandates the written policies of the agency the officer works for has to allow it. The agency I now work for does not allow me to make arrests off duty outside my jurisdiction. The agency I retired from did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Carrying in a posted business is either a state forfeiture or a local ordinance violation. Every municipality and county I know of adopted the forfeiture as a local ordinance so they can enforce it. An ordinance is not a crime in Wisconsin. You cannot be sentenced to jail for an ordinance violation.

    I am not an attorney, this is not legal advice.
    Ok but it is similar to 3 strikes and you are out. The end result of multiple violations would be confiscation of firearm. But then you would have to be a bozo to break an ordinance 3 times! Forfeiture, doesn't it mean you loose something?

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    Where Did You Get This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Ok but it is similar to 3 strikes and you are out. The end result of multiple violations would be confiscation of firearm. But then you would have to be a bozo to break an ordinance 3 times! Forfeiture, doesn't it mean you loose something?
    In this context, a forfeiture means a fine not loss of a firearm. lose - as a verb means to be deprived of or misplace; loose - is either an adjective meaning not tight or a verb meaning to release....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Ok but it is similar to 3 strikes and you are out. The end result of multiple violations would be confiscation of firearm.
    No it wouldn't. Where are you getting this from?

    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    In this context, a forfeiture means a fine not loss of a firearm. lose - as a verb means to be deprived of or misplace; loose - is either an adjective meaning not tight or a verb meaning to release....
    THIS. A forfeiture is for money. And you are not going to be charged with a state forfeiture unless the responding agency is a state law enforcement agency, which would be very rare to happen in a private business.
    More than likely it would be a city/village/town police department or a county sheriffs office. In those cases it would be a local/county ordinance charged and once again, those are not crimes and the only punishment would be a fine.

    As always, I am not an attorney, this is not legal advice, please don't break the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    I wouldn't encourage anyone to break the law. But I wonder if we wouldn't be better off if it became a well known fact that going armed into places that are posted is not a crime? It is a state forfeiture. That's not a crime, one cannot be sent to jail for it. In fact, unless the municipality adopted it as an ordinance only state law enforcement officers can enforce a state forfeiture. (One also cannot be sent to jail for violating local ordinances.) The worst that can happen is a fine max of $1K. I'm surprised at how many in the general public think violating those signs is a serious offense. Unless it's at a place like a court house, it isn't.

    If you are carrying concealed how would anyone know? If you used it to save your life what would you care about a fine?
    Once it became ingrained that those signs had no more bite than a parking ticket and people were carrying anyway, perhaps they would come down and we could end that sillyness.

    Criminals ignore the signs, but you are not a criminal for ignoring it. A state forfeiture is not a crime.

    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, I am not telling you to break the law.
    My college likewise had a 'no weapons' policy. I pocket carried a S&W 642 the whole time. I figured being expelled was the lesser harm since being dead might interfere with my studies anyway.
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    I'm for the bill. I already attend WCTC Gun Rang which is on school property and I have been granted to enter the facility with weapons. Of course after a extensive BC and permit check. The rang is nice and the price is right. But this facility is not for the public only for ccw and leo training.
    Last edited by Russia; 11-04-2015 at 11:12 AM.

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    another step forward if it passes
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

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    I just did firearm training at the MATC range in Oak Creek, both to qualify with the weapon I carry at my current job and the one I have on my certification card from the agency I retired from. Even with a firing range that building is posted like crazy. Roll your eyes crazy.


    Oh, I should have posted the entire wording of Wisconsin statute regarding forfeitures: 939.12  Crime defined: A crime is conduct which is prohibited by state law and punishable by fine or imprisonment or both. Conduct punishable only by a forfeiture is not a crime.

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    Sometimes it is easier to get legislation passed if your State isn't breaking new ground. If you can point to other States that have similar laws / public policy then the consequences of such public policy or laws are less theoretical and more observable. In that vein I offer up the following for anyone who can put a bug into your legislators' ears....

    In the State of Utah, a person with a valid permit to carry can legally carry his firearm on the grounds of college campuses, into buildings, into classrooms and labs and sporting events, he can keep his firearm stored in his dorm room, or he can keep the gun in his car.

    Private colleges can set whatever policy they like regarding student conduct, including banning firearms.

    However, our State colleges are expressly forbidden from enacting policies against the lawful possession of firearms in virtually every meaningful way.

    (Colleges are allowed to set up a single room, on a temporary basis, for holding disciplinary hearings. Max of one room per college. Kind of a "court room" on campus for hearing and deciding campus discipline cases. These rooms can be "secure areas" where guns are banned so long as real security such as metal detectors are used and secure storage is provided for the legally carried guns of those who will be disarmed when entering the room.)

    Our State preemption code can be found here with relevant definition in paragraph 23 here. The same thing, specifically applying to schools is found in this section of Utah code.

    Our State Supreme Court ruled in University of Utah v Shurtleff in 2006 that the University of Utah could not defy State law by maintaining any anti-gun policies. As such, not only can students with permits to carry legally possess their firearms on campus, but so too can all employees, and all are protected against any adverse action by the University. Utah's public colleges cannot have employment, student conduct, housing, nor other policies that limit the otherwise lawful possession of firearms. Because colleges are included in Utah's State level Gun Free School Zone Law, a valid permit to carry is required to legally possess a firearm on campus. However, since colleges are not covered by federal law, any valid permit, issued anywhere in the nation, works for carrying on campus.

    I am unaware of any material issues or problems regarding this policy in the last 11 years that it has been active.

    At least some public colleges have policies allowing students who discover their dormitory roommate has a gun in the dorm to request a transfer to a different room. Public colleges are not allowed to ask who has a permit or who might legally keep a gun in their dorm room.

    I and every other pro-RKBA activist of which I'm aware believes and asserts that OC is as legal on campus for those with permits as is CC. From time to time, a public college attempts to assert some authority to require guns to be CC'd. An on-going battle for us.

    The same policy has existed for our primary and secondary public school employees, parents, etc. In over 10 years protecting the right of public school teachers to carry guns on the job, we've had one ND in a teachers' restroom that resulted in a dead toilet.

    It turns out that those who can be trusted to teach our children all day, can be trusted to carry guns. Ditto for adults attending or working at a college.

    Best of luck.

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