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Thread: Gun Stores Liable? Really?

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Gun Stores Liable? Really?

    Well, gun shops in WI better hope no more people get shot.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/g...icers-34453798

    Idiotic jury.
    Last edited by DeSchaine; 10-13-2015 at 05:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    Well, gun shops in WI better hope no more people get shot.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/g...icers-34453798

    Idiotic jury.
    In Milwaukee anything is possible.

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    Obviously, through all the court proceedings, the name of the guy who did the straw purchase must have come to light.... right?? Has he been arrested yet for that illegal act? I have to wonder how the prosecutor presented the evidence that the dealer knew the guy who actually bought the gun was buying it for the other guy. Seems like he is the one who should have been sued and prosecuted. Maybe I need re-edumacated.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken56 View Post
    Obviously, through all the court proceedings, the name of the guy who did the straw purchase must have come to light.... right?? Has he been arrested yet for that illegal act? I have to wonder how the prosecutor presented the evidence that the dealer knew the guy who actually bought the gun was buying it for the other guy. Seems like he is the one who should have been sued and prosecuted. Maybe I need re-edumacated.
    ken...quote: Collins, the man who purchased the gun, got a two-year sentence after pleading guilty to making a straw purchase for an underage buyer. unquote last sentence in the article...

    ipse
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    Thanks for that Solus...... in my haste I did not finish reading the last paragraph.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    From what I've heard being reported, Badger Arms has what seems to be an abnormally high number of firearms they have sold being used in criminal acts, and the clerk accepting the 4473 did not notice that the straw buyer first indicated that he was buying it for someone else, then changed his answer. Could it be that the clerk "helped" him correct his answer in order to make the sale?

    The clerks in the gun shop I use most often in Northern Virginia are absolutely eagle-eyed when reviewing the form and I have heard that if the inquiry comes back denied that they use some excuse to delay the buyer and call the VA State Police to come in and investigate. This is the way it should be done, IMHO.

    To the extent that Badger may value increased sales over adhering to the letter and spirit of the law, they get what they deserve.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    From what I've heard being reported, Badger Arms has what seems to be an abnormally high number of firearms they have sold being used in criminal acts, and the clerk accepting the 4473 did not notice that the straw buyer first indicated that he was buying it for someone else, then changed his answer. Could it be that the clerk "helped" him correct his answer in order to make the sale?

    The clerks in the gun shop I use most often in Northern Virginia are absolutely eagle-eyed when reviewing the form and I have heard that if the inquiry comes back denied that they use some excuse to delay the buyer and call the VA State Police to come in and investigate. This is the way it should be done, IMHO.

    To the extent that Badger may value increased sales over adhering to the letter and spirit of the law, they get what they deserve.
    oh, there might be an significantly irate customer if any entity decided to take it upon themselves to involve the nice LEs if my 4473 came back denied and i got stuck defending myself needlessly!!

    the system, either run by VA or FBI is only as good as the data input by the minimum wage keypunch operator and to have a business instigate this type of interaction is extremely irresponsible on their part ~ i do not care how their simple minds have justified it.

    now if you wish to caveat your statement the business, depending on how the buyer looks, acts, and so forth thus giving a reasonable pretext to notify the nice LEs i might acquiesce, but your expressed blanket statement they do it as a normal course ~ and in your HO is the way it should be done is BS for any business to operate.

    remember businesses have been forced to closed for lessor offenses, such as failing to make a cake...

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    The clerks in the gun shop I use most often in Northern Virginia are absolutely eagle-eyed when reviewing the form and I have heard that if the inquiry comes back denied that they use some excuse to delay the buyer and call the VA State Police to come in and investigate. This is the way it should be done, IMHO.
    Actual we should do away with GCA68 totally and do away with FFLs and the false belief that back ground checks help.

    All they are is a impediment to the 2nd.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Actual we should do away with GCA68 totally and do away with FFLs and the false belief that back ground checks help.

    All they are is a impediment to the 2nd.
    While some bemoan the PPP/CHP concept institutionalized in NC, NC FFLs are not mandated to run someone through NICS as the presented PPP/CHP by the buyer suffices, by ATF guidance.

    that some FFL insist is the citizens fault, as well as the big box seller for failing to understand NC statutes, as i have seen Gander's sell firearms even when the buyer has not presented their PPP or CHP.

    i concede, there is a bit of subjectivity in the process, but at least those in the direct community have the most pertinent local data on the buyer vice NICS' check.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 10-14-2015 at 09:03 AM.
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    oh, there might be an significantly irate customer if any entity decided to take it upon themselves to involve the nice LEs if my 4473 came back denied and i got stuck defending myself needlessly!!

    the system, either run by VA or FBI is only as good as the data input by the minimum wage keypunch operator and to have a business instigate this type of interaction is extremely irresponsible on their part ~ i do not care how their simple minds have justified it.

    now if you wish to caveat your statement the business, depending on how the buyer looks, acts, and so forth thus giving a reasonable pretext to notify the nice LEs i might acquiesce, but your expressed blanket statement they do it as a normal course ~ and in your HO is the way it should be done is BS for any business to operate.

    remember businesses have been forced to closed for lessor offenses, such as failing to make a cake...

    ipse
    Well, opinions are like, umm, noses -- everybody has one. In MY opinion, the potential buyer who has been denied may have committed a crime, especially since they signed the 4473 and verified that everything they entered was the truth under the penalty of perjury. The gun store needs to protect itself against any possible culpability in selling a firearm to a prohibited person. I have no problem with the clerk taking notice of appearance, and I'm sure that the system contains errors that might result in a false denial, but how is that to be determined?

    We rail against background checks because even if a potential buyer is denied, few are ever prosecuted. How are they to be prosecuted if the police are never made aware that the attempt was made?

    I can't stipulate that every dealer works the way mine does, but my dealer is incredibly professional and does not have "minimum wage keypunch operators" entering the data from the form. As for how a store treats its customers, how else should they react when a customer commits a crime? Is there a difference between shoplifting or committing perjury? Should they not both be investigated by the proper authorities?
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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    ...Remember that the definition of a crime-gun is any gun that has been queried through NCIS, involved in a crime or not...
    Not agreeing or disagreeing, but do you have a cite for that?

    Thanks.

  12. #12
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Well, opinions are like, umm, noses -- everybody has one. In MY opinion, the potential buyer who has been denied may have committed a crime, especially since they signed the 4473 and verified that everything they entered was the truth under the penalty of perjury. The gun store needs to protect itself against any possible culpability in selling a firearm to a prohibited person. I have no problem with the clerk taking notice of appearance, and I'm sure that the system contains errors that might result in a false denial, but how is that to be determined?

    We rail against background checks because even if a potential buyer is denied, few are ever prosecuted. How are they to be prosecuted if the police are never made aware that the attempt was made?

    I can't stipulate that every dealer works the way mine does, but my dealer is incredibly professional and does not have "minimum wage keypunch operators" entering the data from the form. As for how a store treats its customers, how else should they react when a customer commits a crime? Is there a difference between shoplifting or committing perjury? Should they not both be investigated by the proper authorities?
    i'm sorry...'may have'...wow, just absolutely are you kidding me type of wow is all i can truly say.

    the FFL is not held accountable for the customer's alleged perjury nor obligated nor has any iota of responsible to get into the 'might have' or 'what if' or any other kinda of projection game ~ they sell a product, period not act like a foreign investigative entity for the Bundespolizei.

    sorry the royal 'we' you used means whom exactly? if the collective 'WE' make sure you scratch my name out of your collective listing.

    no the minimum wage keypunch operators are those individuals who enter the data into VA or state level criminal bases the VA, ad nauseam systems use for background checks lots of errors and tough to correct...

    let's see...shoplifting...uh, the individual has the the establishment's unpaid article in their immediate possession, perjury ~ the store is going to make leap of faith their customer is lying?? sorry not even a good leap of faith comparison and therefore a resounding NO !

    by the way your nose is running and you should wipe it!!

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 10-14-2015 at 09:52 AM.
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    oh, there might be an significantly irate customer if any entity decided to take it upon themselves to involve the nice LEs if my 4473 came back denied and i got stuck defending myself needlessly!!

    the system, either run by VA or FBI is only as good as the data input by the minimum wage keypunch operator and to have a business instigate this type of interaction is extremely irresponsible on their part ~ i do not care how their simple minds have justified it.

    now if you wish to caveat your statement the business, depending on how the buyer looks, acts, and so forth thus giving a reasonable pretext to notify the nice LEs i might acquiesce, but your expressed blanket statement they do it as a normal course ~ and in your HO is the way it should be done is BS for any business to operate.

    remember businesses have been forced to closed for lessor offenses, such as failing to make a cake...

    ipse
    +1

    A purchase being denied can be for a multitude of reasons. Many of which does not implicate the person being denied of any criminal activity. Same name, same birth date and/or same birth city. As every FFL knows, a denial does not implicate wrong doing and there is a procedure to challenge the denial.

    Calling the cops and accusing someone of a crime could result in a gun shop being sued for slander.

    Just say'n....

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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Actual we should do away with GCA68 totally and do away with FFLs and the false belief that back ground checks help.

    All they are is a impediment to the 2nd.


    +1

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