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OT: Off duty cop shoots car thief

utbagpiper

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Apologies if this has already been posted.

The Utah media carried a story about an off duty Virginia police officer who shot and killed a car thief at a car wash. As reported at this article on KSL, it sounds to me like the officer threatened deadly force over the theft of a car when innocent life and limb were not at risk. Subsequently, the thief made one of those fatal "furtive movements" that justifies getting shot.

Did local Virginia media provide any additional details or better coverage?

Not that I care much for car thieves, but I'm hoping that being a cop doesn't grant privileges to defend mere property in ways that would get us commoners arrested and tossed into prison for a decade or so.

Charles
 

skidmark

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You have as much as we have at the moment. (Well, sort of. Check the "Richmond Area OC" thread for a little bit more detail and a link.)

As an aside, "off duty" cops are still "on duty" when they choose to enforce the law, which gives them the privilege/dispensation to display their firearm under circumstances denied to the proles. Reports say that the cop identified himself as such.

stay safe.
 

taurusfan

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Sounds like the cop had no reason to be "brandishing." Get out of my car or I shoot you?

Let's see what comes of this (nothing?).
 

Grapeshot

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Sounds like the cop had no reason to be "brandishing." Get out of my car or I shoot you?

Let's see what comes of this (nothing?).
Generally police officers are allow to place their hand on their holstered gun or draw their sidearm for their personal protection in many instances. Such is not considered brandishing.

§ 18.2-282
"B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another."
https://vacode.org/18.2-282/

The man attempting to steal the officers car was in control (or out of control) with a very heavy, high speed killing machine, some would say. That and don't think an officer needs to be shot, stabbed, or run over first before responding. The commonwealth attorney will ultimately make a decision as to whether to proceed or not.

Personally, I think there is too little information for me to make a rational judgement call at this point.
 

Citizen

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--edited by Moderator--

That's easy to settle. Just ask yourself, "Should government be given the power to string someone up -- edited by Moderator--

While the US Supreme Court has done massive destruction to rights, they've occasionally gotten something right. One such decision is Tennessee vs Garner--the decision that forbade police using lethal force except in certain specific situations. In that case, a young man was killed by a cop. The facts of the case, undisputed, yield the conclusion that at best the dead young man was a burglary suspect at the instant the cop launched the lethal bullet to prevent young Garner leaving the scene and being unavailable for interrogation. In the written decision, SCOTUS points out that burglary is not a capital offense.

So, no. The cop--any cop--has to adhere to the elements of justified lethal force: AOJ/I--ability, opportunity, jeopardy/intent. These elements must be present in order for the cop or anybody else to be judged reasonable in their fear. That is to say (Citizen evaluation coming), AOJ/I is the criteria to judge whether the fear of grave bodily injury or death was a reasonable fear. The fella who was shot in the butt a few years ago is a great example. The cop said he fired because he thought the victim was reaching back into the car for a gun, meaning there was no gun in view, yet. The guy was reaching back into his car for his driver's license. So, the victim was shot before "Ability" existed--no gun or other weapon in view.

Side Note: I've read numerous shootings over the years. I cannot over-emphasize the value of using AOJ/I to evaluate a shooting. Just compare each fact to A, O, or I/J. Does the fact being looked at establish A, O, or I/J?. I've been doing that since learning about AOJ/I. Its marvelous for sorting out whether the shooting was justified.
 
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scouser

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That's easy to settle. Just ask yourself, "Should government be given the power to string someone up -- edited by Moderator--?"

I didn't claim the government should be the ones to do it :lol:
 
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skidmark

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The man attempting to steal the officers car was in control (or out of control) with a very heavy, high speed killing machine, some would say. That and don't think an officer needs to be shot, stabbed, or run over first before responding. The commonwealth attorney will ultimately make a decision as to whether to proceed or not.

Personally, I think there is too little information for me to make a rational judgement call at this point.

Per the reports, the alleged car thief was trying to drive the car into the car wash bay. Further, the off-duty cop was standing at the driver's side door during the incident.

Playing Devil's Advocate - that does not sound like it poses much risk to life and limb.

It's the "furtive movement" that'll get ya killed every time.

stay safe.
 

solus

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might i proffer a nit:

why is it being presumed 'alleged car thief' when ya'l are referring to the individual whose life was ended?

i am sure that is how the nice off duty LE referred to the individual in the LE's submitted in their report, right besides the comments about how the 'individual made movement(s) which i felt threatened me' comment.

ipse
 

solus

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I'm torn between wondering how you or I would be treated if we killed someone we claimed we saw moving as though they were reaching for a weapon when they were just attempting to steal our vehicle, and my personal belief that car thieves need to be strung up --edited by Moderator--

(raising my hand) uh scouser, your feelings wouldn't be hurt if i do not want you on my jury when i am tried for grand auto...

ipse
 
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Grapeshot

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Per the reports, the alleged car thief was trying to drive the car into the car wash bay. Further, the off-duty cop was standing at the driver's side door during the incident.

Playing Devil's Advocate - that does not sound like it poses much risk to life and limb.

It's the "furtive movement" that'll get ya killed every time.

stay safe.
The reports I have read say the perp "drove it through the stall."

That gives me reason to believe he would not have stopped on his own. Still not intending to make a judgement call.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=36998345&ni...shoots-man-at-virginia-car-wash&s_cid=queue-6
 

solus

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seems the reports are not original per se, but appear to rehash the original report, given by the county investigator(s).

ipse
 

TFred

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My favorite part of the report:

"The car wash and the Sunoco station remained open after the shooting, and there was no sign of the confrontation later in the day."

Shooting? What shooting? We gotta keep these cars moving!!

TFred
 

skidmark

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might i proffer a nit:

why is it being presumed 'alleged car thief' when ya'l are referring to the individual whose life was ended?

i am sure that is how the nice off duty LE referred to the individual in the LE's submitted in their report, right besides the comments about how the 'individual made movement(s) which i felt threatened me' comment.

ipse

Because if we called him "the car thief" his heirs and assigns would sue os for defamation. :p

My favorite part of the report:

"The car wash and the Sunoco station remained open after the shooting, and there was no sign of the confrontation later in the day."

Shooting? What shooting? We gotta keep these cars moving!!

TFred

Very interestink! There was enough tape to hide a Mack truck when we went past, and even if there were not the lot was chock-a-block full of cop cars.

And they was usin' up all kinds of cop equipment that they had hangin'
Around the Police Officer Station. They was takin' plaster tire tracks,
Footprints, dog-smellin' prints and they took twenty-seven 8 x 10 colored
Glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of
Each one explainin' what each one was, to be used as evidence against us.
Took pictures of the approach, the getaway, the northwest corner, the
Southwest corner . . .
And that's not to mention the aerial photography!

stay safe.
 

Liberty-or-Death

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Here's the RTD story: http://bit.ly/1ROLmp4
And here's a satellite photo showing the D-loop shaped driveway behind the gas station and carwash.
98666bc3ddb6874e8a1cecda65e8f17b.jpg

This location is literally across the street from the Virginia State Police HQ.

I still don't understand how this went down, specifically who was where and who did what when.

I vaguely recall a local story several years ago of citizen who saw an attempt in progress to steal his friend's car in which the citizen was charged for shooting the "suspect". I seriously doubt the officer in this story will be charged.

It's crazy to think I was 3 doors down when this happened and didn't know about it until later.
 

WalkingWolf

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The deceased made a sudden movement which would make it justified. But I believe after somebody dies that the person should be able to articulate just what the sudden movement was. Instead of just using the catch all. If he reached for a gun, then say he reached for a gun. If he scratched his nose then say he scratched his nose.

A person could shoot a lot of people just based on a "sudden movement".
 
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skidmark

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So you are saying that "If you so much as twitch I'll blow your head off" is no longer valid?

And if the alleged car thief was sitting in the car how could the off-duty cop know what he was reaching for? There is a claim that the alleged car thief reached "towards" his waistband, and that crooks, robbers, and Sumdood and all his relatives are known to carry handguns tucked into their waistbands.

Of course, this might have been a choirboy returning home from Bible study after helping a herd of old ladies across the street and all he was doing was reaching to scratch a certain pair of anatomical parts.

Why get all wrapped up in details when you can just say "He made a furtive movement"? [/sarcasm]

stay safe.
 

solus

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seat was misadjusted and he was reaching to adjust it or himself...

ipse
 

Grapeshot

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Other than rudimentary information there is nothing that can be confirmed at this time.

Some may say that the wagons are being circled - I wont go that far. I will wait, albeit with only a little patience and understanding of the process.

While we enjoyed breakfast just a short distance away, lives were forever altered.
 
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