Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 73

Thread: Hungary's border fence works. "It has effectively stopped illegal border-crossing."

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,161

    Hungary's border fence works. "It has effectively stopped illegal border-crossing."

    Hungary said Monday its shutdown of the border with Croatia had put a stop to the influx of migrants and refugees. [ ... ] "The border closure is working, it has effectively stopped illegal border-crossing," government spokesman Zoltan Kovacs told reporters in Nagykanizsa, close to the Croatian border."

    https://news.yahoo.com/hungary-says-...114617312.html

    Our ocean 'borders' are effective. Hungary's border fence is effective, though it looks much like our US fence.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  2. #2
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,884
    uh, er, (politely raising my hand) ummmmm isn't this what Trump is proposing?

    noticed no backlash by the citizens of Hungary for this action either...

    just saying...what part of 'illegal don't some understand??'

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 10-19-2015 at 09:04 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  3. #3
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    uh, er, (politely raising my hand) ummmmm isn't this what Trump is proposing?

    noticed no backlash by the citizens of Hungary for this action either...

    just saying...what part of 'illegal don't some understand??'

    ipse
    They want a voter base that has no basis for liberty so they can use demonacracy to take away our weapons.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  4. #4
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,884
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    They want a voter base that has no basis for liberty so they can use demonacracy to take away our weapons.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

    wow freedom, what a subject matter leap and w/o preamble or by your leave. leaping from border fence to keep illegal immigrants out to voter base and taking away our weapons...

    kudos for effort tho

    (wondering out loud...NV's the big guy and buckeye's BB says i can't put my thoughts down coherently ~ wandering off into the ethernet world just shaking my head pondering the number 42)

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,161
    Pondering Cyclic Conformal Cosmology is more beneficial.

    About democracy, the (post-) modern conception of it is corrupt for the vulgar translation of Aristotle's demotic Greek. Paraphrased from his Politics IV, Ch. 9: It is accepted as democratic when public offices are allocated by lot; and as oligarchic when they are filled by election. (1391) Democracy arose from the idea that those who are equal in any respect are equal absolutely. All are alike free, therefore they claim that all are free absolutely... The next is when the democrats, on the grounds that they are all equal, claim equal participation in everything. (1294) The original may be thousands of words long in my Jowett translation.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  6. #6
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,884
    that term: Cyclic Conformal Cosmology doesn't encompass religion, science, math, alice, technology, astrology...and a myriad of other areas...

    now where was i again, oh right...
    ab-cd, ac-bd, and ad-bc are each multiples of the value.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  7. #7
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,795
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Hungary said Monday its shutdown of the border with Croatia had put a stop to the influx of migrants and refugees. [ ... ] "The border closure is working, it has effectively stopped illegal border-crossing," government spokesman Zoltan Kovacs told reporters in Nagykanizsa, close to the Croatian border."
    Properly constructed, manned, and maintained, fences do a reasonably good job of materially controlling borders or boundaries.

    That we have not properly controlled our Southern border indicates that there are those in power who don't want the border controlled. I believe it is a top-bottom issue rather than a left-right issue. Blue collar union democrats don't want the market flooded which cheap labor any more than grassroots conservatives want to see our national culture eroded. However, big business wants cheap, disposable labor not well situated to sue for discrimination, dangerous working conditions, or failure to pay overtime, while ivory tower liberal elites want to undermine the culture and assure a large voting block in favor of welfare. (Freedom1Man was correct as far as he went but seems to have assumed this was a left-right issue.)

    We also have the issue of too many voters not having a good frame of reference. Toss out large numbers and problems sound too expensive or insurmountable.

    Last time I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation, a coast-to-coast double layer fence along the Southern border would cost somewhere in the same neighborhood as the lifetime cost of a single aircraft carrier: about $8 Billion. It could be fully and properly manned with a force no larger than the number of sworn officers in the NYPD: about 34,000.

    Now, in isolation $8 Billion and 34,000 men sounds like huge numbers. But in the context presented above, doesn't seem undoable for a nation with a dozen large city police departments and something like 8 or 10 full carrier groups. Put in other terms an annual US Budget of $3520 billion ($3.52 Trillion) and a population of 320,000 thousand (320 million) can probably support these numbers 2/10ths of one percent of the annual budget and 1/100th of our population, respectively.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  8. #8
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,318
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    uh, er, (politely raising my hand) ummmmm isn't this what Trump is proposing?

    noticed no backlash by the citizens of Hungary for this action either...

    just saying...what part of 'illegal don't some understand??'

    ipse
    The same kind that tells me it is illegal to marry without prior state approval, or to have certain types of firearms, or to use more than a certain amount of water when taking a shower or flushing the commode, etc. etc.

    Amazing that occasionally rights activists still appeal to something being illegal attempting to demonize it, as if being illegal should be all the evidence needed to condemn the activity, while then turning around and preaching the exact opposite when it is one of their beloved activities that's being stopped.

    I'm sure out situation is nearly identical to that of Hungary, so obviously we should very simply be able to mimic their fence-building and it'd solve our problem to the same degree it has solved theirs. /sarcasm
    Advocate freedom please

  9. #9
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    We will not know if it works until it is built. Claiming that it will not work before it is built is nothing but liberal logic. Build the fence and then see what happens. Hungary has a fence and we now have a example.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,161
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    We will not know if it works until it is built. Claiming that it will not work before it is built is nothing but liberal logic. Build the fence and then see what happens. Hungary has a fence and we now have a example.
    LOL Empirical, even scientific experimental, data. Bwahaha!
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,161

    Savage:'We've lost the battle' World 'changing in ways you could never have imagined.

    "Paraphrasing the email, Savage said that what German Chancellor Angela Merkel is "doing to Germany, what the weakling is doing to England, what the socialist is doing to France, what Obama the psychopath is doing to America, will render this country non-existent in less than 50 years."
    http://www.wnd.com/2015/10/michael-s...st-the-battle/
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  12. #12
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,884
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    We will not know if it works until it is built. Claiming that it will not work before it is built is nothing but liberal logic. Build the fence and then see what happens. Hungary has a fence and we now have a example.

    nawllll we had an example in 1961, took Kennedy to speak horrible Deutsch and Reagan to hollar at Mikhail to get it down in 1989ish.

    tho fences do make good neighbours.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  13. #13
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,318
    Perhaps we can't say with absolute certainty whether or not it'd work prior to construction and testing, but we can certainly use our past experience and reasoning abilities to draw reasonably certain predictions. To throw out applicable past experience because it isn't experience with precisely what is being proposed, and to toss reason out alongside it, in favor of such a narrow-sighted insistence that we can't know until we try the literal thing, is hardly a supportable position.

    To be consistent I must concede that the fence in Hungary should at least be examined and considered as generally applicable experience. However, I suspect that it would take little time to discovery sufficient differences in circumstances to easily conclude that just because it works there, that doesn't in any way mean it'll necessarily work here.

    It is definitely reasonable to avoid enormous expenditures when there is little reason to believe the expenditure will accomplish the proposed goal, even when there is insufficient evidence to prove that the expenditure would certainly fail to accomplish the goal. In other words, I think we should want at least some reason to believe it'll work, as opposed to just blindly doing anything that isn't proven to fail.

    This all completely aside whether or not the goal is justifiable and worthwhile in the first place.
    Advocate freedom please

  14. #14
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Migrants risked severe injury Wednesday as they clambered over or wriggled under a razor-wire fence placed by Hungary across its border with Serbia - a desperate attempt by authorities to stem a record flow over refugees across Europe.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/eur...europe-n416341
    Not exactly the type of fence the US Government approved the building of back in 2006 me thinks. Ya gets what ya pay for. Even the Iron Curtain did not stop all crossings.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  15. #15
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,227
    IDK much about border fences, but I did notice this:

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/28/politi...pike-upgrades/


    If politicos don't like fences, why the need to add spikes to the White House fence?

    Fences = good for the rich and powerful, political elite.
    Fences = bad to protect American citizens from a wave of illegal immigration from gang ridden, 3rd world countries.

    Makes total math sense!
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,161
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    [ ... ]Even the Iron Curtain did not stop all crossings.
    Iron Curtain or Berlin Wall? The Iron Curtain was a just newspeak. The Berlin Wall stopped about 5000 attempts with about 200 killed trying. (http://www.chronik-der-mauer.de/todesopfer/?n German language See also the Additional Material)
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  17. #17
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Iron Curtain or Berlin Wall? The Iron Curtain was a just newspeak. The Berlin Wall stopped about 5000 attempts with about 200 killed trying. (http://www.chronik-der-mauer.de/todesopfer/?n German language See also the Additional Material)
    Ask the Czechs and Austrians whether or not the Iron Curtain was just news speak...or google.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  18. #18
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Ask the Czechs and Austrians whether or not the Iron Curtain was just news speak...or google.
    No, not news speak, "newspeak," one word, stems from the book, "1984."

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  19. #19
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    No, not news speak, "newspeak," one word, stems from the book, "1984."

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Oops!

    Newspeak is the fictional language in the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, written by George Orwell. It is a controlled language created by the totalitarian state Oceania as a tool to limit freedom of thought, and concepts that pose a threat to the regime such as freedom, self-expression, individuality, and peace.
    I'll catch up in a minute...right after I get my "foot outta my mouth." Thanks for the lesson.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Port Angeles , Washington
    Posts
    39

    Orwells "1984"

    George Orwells "1984" was required reading when I was still in school in the mid to late '50's. In my mind it needs to
    become required reading again, as a reminder of where this nation is headed.

    ................................... Jack

  21. #21
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by Spooler41 View Post
    George Orwells "1984" was required reading when I was still in school in the mid to late '50's. In my mind it needs to
    become required reading again, as a reminder of where this nation is headed.

    ................................... Jack
    It should be still today.

    I enjoyed it and it did disturb me.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  22. #22
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    north mason county, Washington, USA
    Posts
    4,381

    Yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spooler41 View Post
    George Orwells "1984" was required reading when I was still in school in the mid to late '50's. In my mind it needs to
    become required reading again, as a reminder of where this nation is headed.

    ................................... Jack
    also make the kids watch,,, Fahrenheit 451...
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    All fences do is generate, out of whole cloth, additional black market activities.

    Not to mention our government is inept, venal and corrupt, and generally incapable of making any single thing it touches anything but worse.

    So, yeah, have fun with your "fence".
    Last edited by marshaul; 10-31-2015 at 09:50 PM.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Perhaps we can't say with absolute certainty whether or not it'd work prior to construction and testing, but we can certainly use our past experience and reasoning abilities to draw reasonably certain predictions. To throw out applicable past experience because it isn't experience with precisely what is being proposed, and to toss reason out alongside it, in favor of such a narrow-sighted insistence that we can't know until we try the literal thing, is hardly a supportable position.

    To be consistent I must concede that the fence in Hungary should at least be examined and considered as generally applicable experience. However, I suspect that it would take little time to discovery sufficient differences in circumstances to easily conclude that just because it works there, that doesn't in any way mean it'll necessarily work here.

    It is definitely reasonable to avoid enormous expenditures when there is little reason to believe the expenditure will accomplish the proposed goal, even when there is insufficient evidence to prove that the expenditure would certainly fail to accomplish the goal. In other words, I think we should want at least some reason to believe it'll work, as opposed to just blindly doing anything that isn't proven to fail.

    This all completely aside whether or not the goal is justifiable and worthwhile in the first place.
    I'm still wondering from where the Hungarian government, or even individual citizens, get the legitimate power to deny access to refugees.

    Rhetorical question: If I understand things correctly, even the daggone socialists claim the earth is held in trust by the living. So, where do they get the power to deny part of the earth to other human beings escaping war and criminality?

    Another rhetorical question: Why do the Hungarians not have sufficient abundance to help the refugees? Could it be a parasitical government has sucked out so much that they cannot help refugees?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Árida Zona
    Posts
    1,648
    Quote Originally Posted by Spooler41 View Post
    George Orwells "1984" was required reading when I was still in school in the mid to late '50's. In my mind it needs to
    become required reading again, as a reminder of where this nation is headed.

    ................................... Jack
    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    also make the kids watch,,, Fahrenheit 451...
    Please. Unfortunately, those books aren't exactly required in my area; been a few years now since I graduated from high school, but the depth of analysis into these works was pitiful.

    1984 was replaced by Animal Farm (still a good read), and the lesson given was: "Communism is bad, m'kay". Nothing about the duty to question "leadership" and hold "authorities" accountable, nothing about the faults of fanatical state-worship, blind obedience, etc.

    Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 and Miller's The Crucible were also glossed over in a similar manner. Where were the discussions on the evils of any form of censorship (especcially when it contradicts the state)? The discussion on societal persecution for one's individualism/principles/outspoken nature? Mob rule? State coercion?

    Heck, even the lessons on the Constitution and the founding of this nation were taught through a revisionist lens (still not quite as bad as the statists in the NE or the People's Democratic Republic of Kalifornia, thankfully). "The Constitution saved us all by giving the Federal government authority over the states", "the Articles of Confederation were a weak 'glue' for the country because it gave states a more equal voice", "Lincoln's usurpation of power was okay because he did it to free the slaves", etc.

    /rant off.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 10-31-2015 at 11:13 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •