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Thread: a bill coming this year

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    a bill coming this year

    A bill coming this year.
    This will prohibit shooting within 25 yards of a public road.
    The purpose is to stop shooting down roads as we saw in the Harris video I posted a while back.
    I'm in favor of this but is it going to be supported by the 2A community, or will they see it as an infringment????

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    Regular Member FBrinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    A bill coming this year.
    This will prohibit shooting within 25 yards of a public road.
    The purpose is to stop shooting down roads as we saw in the Harris video I posted a while back.
    I'm in favor of this but is it going to be supported by the 2A community, or will they see it as an infringment????
    I'll support it as long as it is narrowly defined under the restraints of pertaining to hunting and not personal defense. Such as "while engaged in the act of hunting, running dogs, assisting a hunter,..", etc. Otherwise I can see some clown CA using it against a LAC when they use their firearm in a self defense situation in an area that happens to be close to a road.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBrinson View Post
    I'll support it as long as it is narrowly defined under the restraints of pertaining to hunting and not personal defense. Such as "while engaged in the act of hunting, running dogs, assisting a hunter,..", etc. Otherwise I can see some clown CA using it against a LAC when they use their firearm in a self defense situation in an area that happens to be close to a road.
    Good point!

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    isn't there already a law about shooting down roads in the manner shown in the video you posted?

    wouldn't it make sense to enforce that law before making any others?
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    isn't there already a law about shooting down roads in the manner shown in the video you posted?

    wouldn't it make sense to enforce that law before making any others?
    Depends on the county. Many of them they can hunt ditch to ditch and shoot down the shoulder.

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    Regular Member FBrinson's Avatar
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    Code:
     18.2-286 - If any person discharges a firearm, crossbow or bow and arrow in or across any road, or within the right-of-way thereof, or in a street of any city or town, he shall, for each offense, be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.
    
    The provisions of this section shall not apply to firing ranges or shooting matches maintained, and supervised or approved, by law-enforcement officers and military personnel in performance of their lawful duties.

    To Scouser's point, does this not cover shooting in, over, from roads?

    I know counties are allowed to set their own firearm discharge ordinances, but would this state code cover the road issue. I would still support the proposed bill since it extends out to 25 yards. I hope that it would be at least a class 2 misdemeanor to put some more bite into the law.
    Last edited by FBrinson; 10-22-2015 at 09:41 PM. Reason: ETA

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBrinson View Post
    Code:
     18.2-286 - If any person discharges a firearm, crossbow or bow and arrow in or across any road, or within the right-of-way thereof, or in a street of any city or town, he shall, for each offense, be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.
    
    The provisions of this section shall not apply to firing ranges or shooting matches maintained, and supervised or approved, by law-enforcement officers and military personnel in performance of their lawful duties.

    To Scouser's point, does this not cover shooting in, over, from roads?

    I know counties are allowed to set their own firearm discharge ordinances, but would this state code cover the road issue. I would still support the proposed bill since it extends out to 25 yards. I hope that it would be at least a class 2 misdemeanor to put some more bite into the law.

    It wouldn't but there is a statute preventing shooting down the road. Problem is no one admits they do it. Drive down the roads in any of the dog counties and you'll see caravans of trucks with hunters waiting for the deer to cross.
    25 yards gives the game warden something to work with...otherwise he has to actually see them fire the shot.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It wouldn't but there is a statute preventing shooting down the road. Problem is no one admits they do it. Drive down the roads in any of the dog counties and you'll see caravans of trucks with hunters waiting for the deer to cross.
    25 yards gives the game warden something to work with...otherwise he has to actually see them fire the shot.
    I agree with the restrictions that only apply the statute to hunting, but how does this wider exclusion zone help the game warden? If the game warden doesn't see the person fire the shot, how can the hunter be charged? Obviously not a hunter.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Without regard to direction?

    I have trouble with zones that give no reference to direction of aim.
    There are difficult situations where intending to shoot down range, from behind a structure, and in the opposite direction of the road, yet within the buffer zone thus prohibiting it is insane.
    Last edited by ChristCrusader; 10-23-2015 at 03:10 AM.
    *I am not a lawyer. Nothing from me shall be construed as a magic cloak of legal advice. It's ultimately your tucas that's on the line. Keep examining the law anyway. The gov't, made up of people like us, is supposed to work for us, not against us. Let's find, correct, and avoid the wrongs before they're actively used against us, or we become innocently trapped by them. We're to be the masters. Let's vigilantly keep tabs on our servants who seek to rule us.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    I agree with the restrictions that only apply the statute to hunting, but how does this wider exclusion zone help the game warden? If the game warden doesn't see the person fire the shot, how can the hunter be charged? Obviously not a hunter.
    I think it'll need to be worded "no hunting within 25 yards of a public road".

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    Devil's advocate...

    Say I am hunting a field, close to a road, facing away from the road, in no way endangering the road and I am in the wrong by being too close to the road. It would seem a possible distinction that could cause a problem. 25 yards seems a bit extreme for that situation. (note to all concerned: I keep a permit for varmint hunting but seldom hunt deer.) It is always difficult to legislate that which equates to "Don't be stupid with guns". There are far too many stupid people out there.
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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Take a look at this one

    Unlawful use of a loaded firearm.

    This is how we deal with the same situation in Washington. This will address the semantics of "how far off the road is off the road".

    http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=77.15.460
    RCW 77.15.460

    Loaded rifle or shotgun in vehicle Unlawful use or possession Unlawful use of a loaded firearm Penalty.


    (1) A person is guilty of unlawful possession of a loaded rifle or shotgun in a motor vehicle, as defined in RCW 46.04.320, or upon an off-road vehicle, as defined in RCW 46.04.365, if:

    (a) The person carries, transports, conveys, possesses, or controls a rifle or shotgun in a motor vehicle, or upon an off-road vehicle, except as allowed by department rule; and

    (b) The rifle or shotgun contains shells or cartridges in the magazine or chamber, or is a muzzle-loading firearm that is loaded and capped or primed.

    (2) A person is guilty of unlawful use of a loaded firearm if:

    (a) The person negligently discharges a firearm from, across, or along the maintained portion of a public highway; or

    (b) The person discharges a firearm from within a moving motor vehicle or from upon a moving off-road vehicle.

    (3) Unlawful possession of a loaded rifle or shotgun in a motor vehicle or upon an off-road vehicle, and unlawful use of a loaded firearm are misdemeanors.

    (4) This section does not apply if the person:

    (a) Is a law enforcement officer who is authorized to carry a firearm and is on duty within the officer's respective jurisdiction;

    (b) Possesses a disabled hunter's permit as provided by RCW 77.32.237 and complies with all rules of the department concerning hunting by persons with disabilities; or

    (c) Discharges the rifle or shotgun from upon a nonmoving motor vehicle, as long as the engine is turned off and the motor vehicle is not parked on or beside the maintained portion of a public road, except as authorized by the commission by rule. This subsection (4)(c) does not apply to off-road vehicles, which are unlawful to use for hunting under RCW 46.09.480, unless the person has a department permit issued under RCW 77.32.237.

    (5) For purposes of subsection (1) of this section, a rifle or shotgun shall not be considered loaded if the detachable clip or magazine is not inserted in or attached to the rifle or shotgun.
    [2014 c 48 18; 2012 c 176 28; 1999 c 258 7; 1998 c 190 28.]
    The problem with America is stupidity.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    Say I am hunting a field, close to a road, facing away from the road, in no way endangering the road and I am in the wrong by being too close to the road. It would seem a possible distinction that could cause a problem. 25 yards seems a bit extreme for that situation. (note to all concerned: I keep a permit for varmint hunting but seldom hunt deer.) It is always difficult to legislate that which equates to "Don't be stupid with guns". There are far too many stupid people out there.
    In what is not my usual style -

    Suck it up, buttercup. It says 25 yards. It means 25 yards. It does not care which way your barrel is pointing.

    You start nickle and dimeing this and before you know it there will be no law.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    in that case....

    I would prefer no law due to the potential for misuse. I was pointing out the potential. If we are going to be heavy handed (the usual Guberment method) then NO law beats BAD law. Count me opposed even though I support the intent of the law in question.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristCrusader View Post
    I have trouble with zones that give no reference to direction of aim.
    There are difficult situations where intending to shoot down range, from behind a structure, and in the opposite direction of the road, yet within the buffer zone thus prohibiting it is insane.
    Yes, this. It would seem that this bill would give free reign to all groundhogs and other pesky varmints to devour any crops that happen to be within 25 yards of a road. In the area where I grew up, the local farmer went around in his truck and was able to sneak up on groundhogs out in the fields - and save the soybeans! Add this 25 yard requirement, and they'll be eating the WHOLE crop.

    TFred

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    I really don't care if the old farts "truck hunt" as long as they don't shoot me or my car. Been that way around my house longer than I've been on the planet. Usually there are one or more Deputies and/or Troopers in the bunch.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    Say I am hunting a field, close to a road, facing away from the road, in no way endangering the road and I am in the wrong by being too close to the road. It would seem a possible distinction that could cause a problem. 25 yards seems a bit extreme for that situation. (note to all concerned: I keep a permit for varmint hunting but seldom hunt deer.) It is always difficult to legislate that which equates to "Don't be stupid with guns". There are far too many stupid people out there.
    Also, you get into the whole mess of things like, being 26 yards from the road is enough to cause reasonable suspicion, because, ya know, it can be hard to tell whether the hunter was 73' from the road or 78' from the road. So the deputy or warden now seizes you temporarily wile he gets out his 75' tape measure. Or, "Oh! Those are not your tracks coming within 24 yards of the road while you skirted that marshy spot?"

    Its pretty easy to tell if a fella is between the ditch and the road. Twenty five yards, not so much.

    Count me opposed. I don't hunt, but there's no way I'd wish opening those cans of worms on hunters.
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-23-2015 at 09:17 PM.
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    How many acres would be off limits to hunting if you ban hunting on 25 yards of each side of every road in the state.


    Public right of way sure, my private property?

    Same old slippery slope as all gun control. 25 yards from road, 200 yards from a residence. Soon it will be 25 yards from any property lines etc etc untill you cant hunt on anything under 100 acres.

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    We have a similar law in wis. only it is 50 foot from the center line When you own property along some of the smaller rural town gravel or dirt roads it can be a problem.

    Be very careful what you wish for

    I know of people cited for walking down the road for simply saying they were hunting when in all reality they were walking from one hunting spot to another.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 10-24-2015 at 06:58 AM.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    We have a similar law in wis. only it is 50 foot from the center line When you own property along some of the smaller rural town gravel or dirt roads it can be a problem.

    Be very careful what you wish for

    I know of people cited for walking down the road for simply saying they were hunting when in all reality they were walking from one hunting spot to another.
    Add this to the list in my post above. Thanks for chipping in experience, FI.
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-24-2015 at 06:37 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    A 25 yard zone (even while hunting) proposes an absolute mathematical measurement without regard to context or the presence or absence of any specific endangerment.

    Were you target shooting on your own property, aiming away from the road, from behind a berm, building, wall, or other cover (maybe off of your back deck on the other side of the house), yet < 25 yards from the maintained portion of the road (and turns out there was an easement beside that too that extended the starting point of measurement?)?

    How about instead, a law that prohibits any actual action that is endangering to anyone, no matter where it is, instead of creating another arbitrary zone that ends up prohibiting lawful, useful, good things along the way too, without regard to what's actually occurring and the context.

    We could call it something like, the don't endanger anyone law.
    or ~
    18.2-56.1. Reckless handling of firearms; reckless handling while hunting.
    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to handle recklessly any firearm so as to endanger the life, limb or property of any person. Any person violating this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    http://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/t...tion18.2-56.1/
    Last edited by ChristCrusader; 10-25-2015 at 06:09 AM.
    *I am not a lawyer. Nothing from me shall be construed as a magic cloak of legal advice. It's ultimately your tucas that's on the line. Keep examining the law anyway. The gov't, made up of people like us, is supposed to work for us, not against us. Let's find, correct, and avoid the wrongs before they're actively used against us, or we become innocently trapped by them. We're to be the masters. Let's vigilantly keep tabs on our servants who seek to rule us.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Thanks guys!
    Just getting a feel of where the 2A community will be on this.

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    I 100% do NOT support this. I've seen first hand the kind of issues this causes. We have some property in southern VA in a town where hunting with dogs is prominent. In the county our land is in, you just have to be across the ditch (no hunting ditch to ditch (aka across the road) obviously). However, in the neighboring county you have to be 100 yards from the road to discharge a rifle while hunting.

    The issue that I've personally seen numerous times is that in the county without this requirement, people hop across the ditch and shoot at the deer as it comes out into the field. Thus shooting away from the road. In the neighboring county where you must be 100 yards from the road, people will walk to the other side of the field and wait for the deer to pop out. If surrounded by woods, they can no longer see either way down the road to see if anything is coming or not and when the animal does pop out they are shooting directly towards the road. I know you should expect people to have more common sense than this, but I've seen firsthand that most people don't. I'd much rather them be shooting away from the road than directly at a road when they usually can't even see what is coming.

    While I'm sure shooting up and down the road does happen as shown in the video you reference and I'd love to be able to stop it, I just don't think this is the solution and I believe it is going to cause an extra safety issue.

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