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Thread: Why are Conceal Carriers so anti-Open Carry?

  1. #1
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    Why are Conceal Carriers so anti-Open Carry?

    I have had several interactions, where while I am open carrying (or even at school and am not even carrying at all), and when somebody sees my gun or learns I am into guns, they ask if I have my conceal carry license. I usually ask why it should matter since I open carry and it does not need a permit in KY, and they just go off on a rant saying "you shouldn't open carry". Even pro-gun students in my pro-2A group think people shouldn't open carry. It's like CC is a cult (don't get me wrong, I'll CC on occassion, but not because I want to CC, but because it's getting colder and I don't have any vests and need to use a coat.

    Tonight, I had a CCW instructor call me "stupid" for OC'ing. To his credit, I implied his incompetence -

    Random guy at park is unloading his car asks me if I have my CCDWL.
    I ask why it should matter since I am OC'ing.
    Because what I am doing (OC'ing at 4:00, not in complete view in front of me) is illegal. He just got his CCDWL and his instructor said so.
    "You know what the difference between the CCW student and most CCW instructors is? An extra hour and a few signatures. Doesn't mean they know the law, just to teach what the State tells them in the video)."
    His buddy asks "now what's the question, because I'm his instructor"
    "Is what I am doing illegal, is this open carry?" Showing him where my gun was
    "What is that some crappy glock? It's stupid is what that is. Someone's going to just take that from you"
    I just walk off, my dog was waiting on some treats for doing good training and I had to get to him before he forgot. I didn't even bother to correct him on it being an HK P30 in a custom-made holster that I train with weekly (since he was implying I was careless).

    I expect this kind of stuff from anti-gunners or ignorant folks. But all of MY pro-2A rights efforts are equally hindered by people who CC. They are all taught that you shouldn't OC by their instructors (I was, I didn't believe so many could be but here we had another instructor). How can they claim to want freedom to carry but wish to deny people the choice in how to carry? Can I then say that CC'ers are lazy at situational awareness?

    I'm at a loss for words in argument with my fellow carriers when they start going wide eyed and hysterical when I say I like to OC more. Like anti-gunners, they don't even listen to the facts and statistics I try telling them. They resort to name calling and temper tantrums. I feel like this is a problem in the gun community as a whole. I have seen 3 OCers outside this forum in public in the 2 years I have been carrying.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Why are open carry people so anti long gun carry?
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

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    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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    Quote Originally Posted by poetdante View Post
    I have had several interactions, where while I am open carrying (or even at school and am not even carrying at all), and when somebody sees my gun or learns I am into guns, they ask if I have my conceal carry license. I usually ask why it should matter since I open carry and it does not need a permit in KY, and they just go off on a rant saying "you shouldn't open carry". Even pro-gun students in my pro-2A group think people shouldn't open carry. It's like CC is a cult (don't get me wrong, I'll CC on occassion, but not because I want to CC, but because it's getting colder and I don't have any vests and need to use a coat.
    ...
    I don't think all that many carriers are hostile to OC. There are something like 12 million persons in this nation who now have a permit to carry. Half a dozen States now have permit free concealed carry in one form or another, meaning additional persons who choose to CC without needing to obtain a permit. You've had negative interactions with how many?

    The problem of course is that those may be the only interactions you've had. It isn't like I feel compelled to run over and say "Congrats and thank you" any time I see someone OCing regardless of whether I'm OCing or CCing myself. This issue is even more difficult than the parallel issue with cops. If I have a bad experience with 2 or 3 officers, I can at least notice the 50 times a cop clearly saw me OCing and did absolutely nothing...which I consider the most positive experience we could hope for. Most CCers are a tad more difficult to spot than uniformed officers and so you have no way of knowing how many fellow carriers saw you OCing and said and did nothing at all.

    As the reason a relatively small number of pro-RKBA folks might oppose OC:
    1-They've bought into the myth of gun-grabs or being targeted first and have decided nobody should do anything they, themselves are not comfortable doing.
    2-They mistakenly think that OCing isn't legal.
    3-They are worried that OCing (generally or into certain locations) might create an anti-gun backlash.

    I consider #1 to be overbearing and offensive. Concerns about legality might be honest concerns for your legal safety. We hate to see someone get busted over an unintentional violation. Worries about an anti-gun backlash may offend us, but have some degree of legitimacy if we remember the very purpose of this site. We want to normalize the possession of firearms by LACs and OC is one way to do that. But time and again we concede that how we comport ourselves while OCing matters. We can leave a positive or negative impression on the honest observer by how we choose to conduct ourselves.

    Of course, we would all say that peaceful OC is nothing to worry about in this regard. And generally we are correct, I believe. But there may be local-specific situations where OCing might be going too far...in violation of laws being the most obvious. I am of the personal opinion that we advance social and legal acceptance of LAC's being armed by pushing the social envelope a bit at a time, always well within legal limits. The rules of this site, placing long gun carry generally off limits is one evidence that even among this group, we recognize the potential for public conduct with firearms to be poorly received.

    But bottom line, it is the gun grabbers who benefit when the RKBA community is divided. It was a divided RKBA community that allowed the black gun ban of 1994 to pass through congress and become law.

    Those of us who choose to be on the leading edge of advancing RKBA need to also be the most mature in terms of not contributing to divisions within the RKBA community. We should support lawful, peaceful, appropriate carry by LACs: be it OC, CC, casual/discrete CC. If someone else chooses to carry differently than we do, so be it. If they want to make an issue of how we carry, we should de-escalate both in person and on the web.

    Discussions here purporting to figure our why CCers oppose OC are probably no more beneficial to our goals than are parallel discussions among a few anti-OCers on CC forums. We can't control what divisions others may attempt to create. But we can choose whether or not to contribute to those divisions. We should avoid stereotyping other segments of the RKBA community: whether they be hunters, collectors, dealers, manufacturers, permit instructors, those who prefer to carry concealed, those who attend church or a different church, those who vote republican or those who vote democrat or those who vote third party, urban or rural, north or south, east or west. It is easy to find the 1% or 10% disagreement, especially on line. But we are best served when we can instead find our common values and focus on those to advance RKBA.

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  4. #4
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poetdante View Post
    I have had several interactions, where while I am open carrying (or even at school and am not even carrying at all), and when somebody sees my gun or learns I am into guns, they ask if I have my conceal carry license. I usually ask why it should matter since I open carry and it does not need a permit in KY, and they just go off on a rant saying "you shouldn't open carry". Even pro-gun students in my pro-2A group think people shouldn't open carry. It's like CC is a cult (don't get me wrong, I'll CC on occassion, but not because I want to CC, but because it's getting colder and I don't have any vests and need to use a coat...
    SOME CCers are as uninformed and biased as anti-gunners. I think we've all experienced one, the other, or both - repeatedly.

    When I get the opportunity to talk to someone about OC, I consider myself an evangelist, not "selling" OC, but selling the notion of reasoned discussion regarding the practice and its foundation. If I'm not willing to engage a person in that way, or they're not willing to reciprocate, then we have nothing further to discuss - and I don't feel smaller because of it. (of course, I don't feel small in general, but... )

    Don't let it get you down. The more you OC and the more you have encounters, good or bad, the less affected you will be by the uninformed/misinformed, and the better equipped you'll be confidently deal with all-comers.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    In my opinion.............

    Some
    CC'ers have the notion that since they passed a class and got a permission slip from Daddy government they are more important than the unwashed masses who don't have that permit. Not to mention some CC'ers think they are now Barny Bad Arse because they have a hidden gun and can whip out their super Ninja element of surprise all over any bad guy that dares attack them.

    And when faced with someone who isn't CCing, perhaps doesn't even have a permit, and is not afraid to carry their gun right out there where anyone can see it..... it hits some CC'ers right in the ego.

    Let me change my sig line a little bit...

    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control, including gun owner's/carriers who don't like OC, it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 10-26-2015 at 07:49 AM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poetdante View Post
    I have had several interactions, ... "What is that some crappy glock? It's stupid is what that is. Someone's going to just take that from you" ...
    The answer was right there in your OP (emphasis mine). Just goes to show ya, some folks hold irrational biases...not about Glocks being crappy though.

    The CC Industrial Complex is strong in some states, weak in others, and nothing but another needed service in others. Until permit free carry is achieved nation wide there will always be a need for a permit...but don't let this enamor their need as needing them in perpetuity. Witnessing unfettered individual liberty being exercised is difficult to accept for some folks. I do not, usually, interact much beyond cordial greetings with the minions of the CC Industrial Complex.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    SOME CCers are as uninformed and biased as anti-gunners. I think we've all experienced one, the other, or both - repeatedly.

    When I get the opportunity to talk to someone about OC, I consider myself an evangelist, not "selling" OC, but selling the notion of reasoned discussion regarding the practice and its foundation. If I'm not willing to engage a person in that way, or they're not willing to reciprocate, then we have nothing further to discuss - and I don't feel smaller because of it. (of course, I don't feel small in general, but... )

    Don't let it get you down. The more you OC and the more you have encounters, good or bad, the less affected you will be by the uninformed/misinformed, and the better equipped you'll be confidently deal with all-comers.
    Guys, not really. He is a tyrant, a giant tyrant. Disguised as an evangelist, but still a giant tyrant.....

    Most people have been brainwashed to believe you need permission to do whatever in life.

    How many times have you heard someone say: Are you allowed to do that? In other words, do you have permission from the government to do that. Most refuse to take the red pill.
    Last edited by color of law; 10-26-2015 at 10:10 AM.

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    It is rumored that BB62 did not go into the zoo because the doorway is far too low for a safe and comfortable entry. Vertically challenged folks have neck pains from conversing with him. Even my monitor seems a bit higher, uncomfortably so.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    OP you do not have to justify your carry, or anything else to anybody. I have had positive reactions, but if the day comes when I encounter a stupid person, I will just walk away. Telling others how to live is a control issue, and the best way to hurt them is not give them any control. Walking away drives them batty. If you want to pour salt on the wound smile as you walk away.
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    Better still, record video of their rantings then dial 911 reporting a threatening citizen making you feel unsafe.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    I posted the following on a local conceal/ open carry Facebook site. And the response to me was sad. Edited to make to remove the posted names and bad language. Sadly I have not had anyone who is conceal only answer the following question. To me this was a simple question.

    Me
    I often heard it mentioned about guns scaring the ordinary person. Each side of the carry crowd has their own idea about how to deal with this. Open carry crowd says that if people see guns on law abiding citizens that they will get used to it and it will become the norm. What do you in the concealed carry group suggest to that would make it normal for non gun people?
    Them
    I conceal carry but that's my preference because I feel open carry paints a target on my back. Although sometimes I open carry but that is rare. There is always going to be someone scared, nothing you can do about it.
    Me
    Ok but how do you make it normal for non gun people ? I am not interested in why you conceal because that is not answering my question. That is just side stepping the issue. I want real answers people not how you don't want to be a target or having your gun grabbed. Since non gun people can't see your gun how do you educate them ?
    Them
    Why do you care if a non gun person cares if you are conceal carrying? You want a point blank answer, if they can't see it you have done your part. They feel normal BECAUSE they don't know you have it. If you are trying to educate people on gun safety while you are concealed carrying while in public you may as well carry openly.
    Me
    Not getting it are you?
    Them
    I do I think the question is dumb
    Honestly
    You seem way too concerned about the way others feel
    I don't think you get it you can't fix stupid...not right now with you or with people who are non gun people. People will be what they are...frankly I could give a sh** less if someone is nervous about me carrying or not...I'm sure not going to go out of my way to make them feel better.
    Me
    I see it as a valid question. How do you pass on tradition ? How do you get non gun people on our side? How do you keep the 2nd Amendment alive with all the negative lame stream media reporting ? How do you do it?
    Them
    You be a responsible gun owner... Nothing more. Don't do demonstrations or be obnoxious with your right to carry. That's all you do. Anything else and you become the idiot trying to protect something that's not going anywhere. I am not a fan of Obama but everyone knew he was taking our guns away when he got his office....I still have my guns.
    Me
    Not going anywhere? Wow you don't keep up with life do you? Look at California, New York, New Jersey and other states. The POTUS is after our rights and has claimed he will not stop. Every mass shooting tears down our wall of protection. Each new law erodes our rights. I am afraid that if we don't make it normal then our rights will be voted away. If we don't sway the non gun people towards our side the Anti's will get them to their side and we lose. That is what is happening when states limit the type of weapon you and have, the amount of ammo you can have in a magazine or what kind of ammo you can own. I open carry not just because it is easier for me. I carry because it is my right, it educates people and helps make it normal for the public to see law abiding people with guns. I have a nephew who is Autistic and when I first started open carrying it scared him. But he got used to it . He told me Uncle David I was afraid of guns but I am not afraid of your gun. I truly believe that if an Autistic boy can get it other people can get it.
    Them
    Those places have always had issues. You asked what you could do to help people. Stop carrying because you are clearly one of the people that are not capable of having common sense.
    Me
    Dude really ? You are part of the problem if you think it will all blow over .
    Them
    I think it will have problems but you single handedly trying to help people while you concealed carry feel normal about it that don't currently...is a complete joke. You will be the problem I'm trying to fix.

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinggabby View Post
    I posted the following on a local conceal/ open carry Facebook site. And the response to me was sad. Edited to make to remove the posted names and bad language. Sadly I have not had anyone who is conceal only answer the following question. To me this was a simple question...
    Wow. Idiocy on parade.

    You asked perfect questions, though, including my favorite "How do we educate/inform/dispel myths when no one knows?"

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Why are open carry people so anti long gun carry?
    Because it takes two hands to explain to the deaf people why you are doing it.....unless you just give them the one hand/finger wave off.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member Liberty-or-Death's Avatar
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    I've personally experienced only minor anti-OC sentiment from CCers. I have, however, witnessed in the speech of some CCers against OCers the same hateful elitist disgust the antis have for all gun lovers.

    IMHO, it's about control (and you'd think liberty-centric people would know better). It's just another flavor of soft tyranny.

    And I think the same holds true for some of the handgun OCer disdain for LGICers. They fear it will set back "the movement", as if it is theirs alone to control.
    Last edited by Liberty-or-Death; 10-26-2015 at 07:09 PM.
    Be active.

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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    I open carry most days and will continue to do so. Anyone that wish to talk about open carry I will speak with, anyone that starts with a discouraging word, I ignore and continue on my way!
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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Because it takes two hands to explain to the deaf people why you are doing it.....unless you just give them the one hand/finger wave off.
    Since maybe .001% of people who open carry pistols know sign language, that's an interstellar fail of an argument.

    Ever hear of lip reading?

    Ever hear of "no need to explain lawful actions?"

    Wait, can you hear?
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 10-26-2015 at 07:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberty-or-Death View Post
    I've personally experienced only minor anti-OC sentiment from CCers. I have, however, witnessed in the speech of some CCers against OCers the same hateful elitist disgust the antis have for all gun lovers.

    IMHO, it's about control (and you'd think liberty-centric people would know better). It's just another flavor of soft tyranny.

    And I think the same holds true for some of the handgun OCer disdain for LGICers. They fear it will set back "the movement", as if it is theirs alone to control.
    "Setback the movement" notion is strong among the students for concealed carry (those I spoke to). I personally would love to OC a shotgun like it was a normal thing (even then, my favorite weapon is a handgun). I personally am for carrying whatever you want.

    As for the folks saying "some" CCers. Yes, I meant some. But so far, all my interactions with CCers has turned nasty when I mention OC. I had to put my foot down as president for Students for Concealed Carry at UofL with our members saying "we support the 2A. Period. Main goal is concealed carry on campus but who are we to judge how people choose to practice their right and not be any more hypocritical than anti-gunners?"

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Since maybe .001% of people who open carry pistols know sign language, that's an interstellar fail of an argument.

    Ever hear of lip reading?

    Ever hear of "no need to explain lawful actions?"

    Wait, can you hear?
    Waat say sonny?

    Simple sign language is universal - no ASL training needed.

    "Quoth the raven, Nevermore. Much I marvelled this ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly, Though its answer little meaning—little relevancy bore..."

    And when they came for me, there was no one left to hear.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Simple sign language is universal - no ASL training needed.

    "Quoth the raven, Nevermore. Much I marvelled this ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly, Though its answer little meaning—little relevancy bore..."

    And when they came for me, there was no one left to hear.
    Pithy, but wrong.

    You said "what about deaf people." They rely on ASL, not some made up BS crap.

    My children sure needed training to learn sign language. I kept up with them mostly, wasn't easy.

    https://forums.penny-arcade.com/disc...-sign-language
    There is a signed language that's one-to-one english, but the ASL teacher that I had pretty much said, (paraphrased) that's not a language, it's signed English.

    You'll have a new, somewhat unfamiliar grammatical structure to learn if you look into ASL.
    Regular English grammar is hard enough for most Americans to master. Add in a whole new 2nd set of grammatical rules and... game over.

    So, what to do about blind people?
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 10-26-2015 at 09:15 PM.
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  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Pithy, but wrong.

    You said "what about deaf people." They rely on ASL, not some made up BS crap.

    --snipped--

    So, what to do about blind people?
    The fickle finger of fate or common finger wave is quickly recognized by discerning individuals.

    I rely on deaf people grasping the tone of my voice and blind people to study the expression on my face. The loss of one sense frequently enhances others. Many (most?) will still retain touch, hence Braille is an option.

    When the loss of normal capacities exceeds hitherto untold levels, I will accept them on their terms......as I trust they will me.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The fickle finger of fate or common finger wave is quickly recognized by discerning individuals.

    I rely on deaf people grasping the tone of my voice and blind people to study the expression on my face. The loss of one sense frequently enhances others. Many (most?) will still retain touch, hence Braille is an option.

    When the loss of normal capacities exceeds hitherto untold levels, I will accept them on their terms......as I trust they will me.
    https://research.gallaudet.edu/Demographics/deaf-US.php
    Across all age groups, in the United States, approximately 1,000,000 people (0.38% of the population, or 3.8 per 1,000) over 5 years of age are "functionally deaf;" more than half are over 65 years of age.
    Gotta appease the 0.38%, right?
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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The fickle finger of fate or common finger wave is quickly recognized by discerning individuals.

    I rely on deaf people grasping the tone of my voice and blind people to study the expression on my face. The loss of one sense frequently enhances others. Many (most?) will still retain touch, hence Braille is an option.

    When the loss of normal capacities exceeds hitherto untold levels, I will accept them on their terms......as I trust they will me.
    Hey, at least you moved onto something that affects a whopping 3% of the population in America
    http://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basi...oss_burden.htm
    (3%) Americans aged 40 years and older are either legally blind (having visual acuity [VA] of 20/200 or worse or a visual field of less than 20 degrees) or are visually impaired (having VA of 20/40 or less)
    Want to try some other disability for justification?
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Hey, at least you moved onto something that affects a whopping 3% of the population in America
    http://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basi...oss_burden.htm


    Want to try some other disability for justification?
    You are cherry picking the numbers relating to hearing problems - it is much greater than that figure would indicate.
    http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/statistics/pages/quick.aspx

    Telling numbers on blindness, loss of visual acuity:
    https://nfb.org/blindness-statistics

    As to finding some other disability, you are providing plenty of help
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poetdante View Post
    Why are Conceal Carriers so anti-Open Carry?
    We're not.

    In fact, many of us are also Open Carriers.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    You are cherry picking the numbers relating to hearing problems - it is much greater than that figure would indicate.
    http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/statistics/pages/quick.aspx

    Telling numbers on blindness, loss of visual acuity:
    https://nfb.org/blindness-statistics

    As to finding some other disability, you are providing plenty of help
    You do realize that crap you posted relies on "self reported and self assessed" surveys.

    Which make it worthless, for real medical science.

    BTW, most Union construction workers claim some hearing loss right before retirement.

    It makes almost all future hearing aids... FREE $$.

    And that's a hard test to lie about, right? "Do you hear a noise?"

    Unions.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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