Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 59

Thread: Jury duty and being a "U.S. Citizen"

  1. #1
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690

    Jury duty and being a "U.S. Citizen"

    Few months ago I received an information request to see about adding me to the jury pool.

    Part of what they wanted me to swear to was being a "U.S. citizen," without giving the legal definition being used.

    They wanted it returned within a limited time frame and since I do not receive much mail I had finally checked my mail long after it was due. I felt no obligation to answer their questions without a certified delivery of a court order to do so.

    What are your experiences with jury duty, jury summons, etc? There is a hot thread in Virginia on a similar topic and I did not want to hijack that thread, so I am starting a new one for all.

    Just keep it related to jury duty, juries, that kind of thing.



    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  2. #2
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Lexington, Ky
    Posts
    1,107
    I've never been called to jury duty, but I hope one day to be selected for it, as one of my inner most wishes, is to decide a person's fate. Do I vote guilty, or not-guilty, do I agree with evidence, or not? To be one of twelve people, who hold the ultimate, god-like decision of someone's fate, that would and could change someone's life for ever! To be one of a pantheon of twelve GODS! SUCH POWER! I WANT IT!
    I'm a proud openly gay open carrier~
    Trained SKYWARN spotter, and veteran Storm Chaser.
    =^.^= ~<3~ =^.^=
    Beware the Pink Camo clad gay redneck.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,165
    So, OPie, do you believe that you are not on a list liable to summons to jury duty for not returning the questionnaire? RCW 2.36.072 Determination of juror qualification may obtain.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  4. #4
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Few months ago I received an information request to see about adding me to the jury pool.

    Part of what they wanted me to swear to was being a "U.S. citizen," without giving the legal definition being used.

    They wanted it returned within a limited time frame and since I do not receive much mail I had finally checked my mail long after it was due. I felt no obligation to answer their questions without a certified delivery of a court order to do so.

    What are your experiences with jury duty, jury summons, etc? There is a hot thread in Virginia on a similar topic and I did not want to hijack that thread, so I am starting a new one for all.

    Just keep it related to jury duty, juries, that kind of thing.



    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    "Jury duty" is conscription, akin slavery, albeit temporary, and is immoral.

    ETA - I think it very often fails to be effective and fair, as well.

    There have been systems of justice that used professional jurors that I've heard good things about. I believe what we typically see as a judge might have roots in that system.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 11-02-2015 at 07:24 AM.
    Advocate freedom please

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,165
    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    [ ... ] There have been systems of justice that used professional jurors that I've heard good things about. I believe what we typically see as a judge might have roots in that system.
    Which, particularly, please, a citation?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  6. #6
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Which, particularly, please, a citation?
    Absolutely, Nightmare. In For a New Liberty by Murray Rothbard, the brehons of ancient Ireland are described as professional jurists on page 288. He also quotes a Joseph R. Peden who also describes them as professional jurists. He describes that they were not government officials, but were selected by disputing parties based on their reputations for wisdom, knowledge of the law, integrity, etc.

    Unfortunately, I could not locate where any current judicial system is said to have been derived from or influenced by that ancient system, only where the ancient system is described as operating somewhat as judges or arbitrators, so I may have misremembered that part. Or, I may have just run out of time before finding it again. Sorry. I'll search again later.

    Edit: While I read a hard copy, it looks as though the book is offered in PDF on Mises.org, free of charge. See if this links works. You should be able to skip down to page 288 and/or search for "professional jurists"
    Actually at this link you can select PDF for epub format. https://mises.org/library/new-libert...rian-manifesto
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 11-02-2015 at 09:03 AM.
    Advocate freedom please

  7. #7
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,274
    Jury of your peers?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Jury of your peers?
    You are aware of where that phrase comes from, no?

    And how it has been changed through court decisions from "people like me" to "people who live generally where you do"?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,165
    Thanks for another citation to Rothbard.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  10. #10
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,795
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    What are your experiences with jury duty, jury summons, etc? There is a hot thread in Virginia on a similar topic and I did not want to hijack that thread, so I am starting a new one for all.
    I've been summoned and appeared 3 or 4 times for jury duty over the last 15 years. There was an addition time or two that I was summoned but did not have to appear. In one case where I appeared, I had to ask to be excused due to a pre-existing medical appointment with a specialist that wasn't going to be rescheduled in a timely manner. In the other 2 or 3 cases I sat through the entire selection process and was not selected.

    Jury duty might be fairly described as conscription or involuntary servitude in contradiction of the 13th amendment.

    The voire dire process is clearly intended to allow the lawyers (on both sides) and the court to disqualify or avoid selecting those who are likely to be less easy to manipulate.

    There are plenty of other reasons why a liberty minded, independent person might see himself justified in avoiding jury duty.

    OTOH, how often do we complain about the outcome of jury trials be they criminal or civil? Well, what do we expect if the only folks showing up to jury selection are those who are easily manipulated, predisposed to believe the government, etc? Are we not all tired of violent criminals and crafty thieves walking free while innocent men are railroaded for "crimes" with no victims or forced into unjust settlements?

    If you are ever charged with a crime, or sued civilly, who do you want on your jury? Someone like you? Or the proverbial person who is "too stupid to get out of jury duty"?

    It only takes one member of a criminal jury to hang the jury and force a re-trial, perhaps compelling the government to offer a plea deal more in line with justice. A single, persuasive person inside the jury room in either a civil or criminal case might actually convince the other jurors to do the right thing.

    To me, jury duty is like voting. If we ever get to the point that voting and serving on a jury really are completely ineffective, we have some really unspeakable problems coming quickly. As they say:

    Liberty is protected by four boxes:
    Soap,
    Ballot,
    Jury,
    and Cartridge.

    Use them in that order.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Only time I have shown up, I was deselected for knowing too much about guns.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  12. #12
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,318
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I've been summoned and appeared 3 or 4 times for jury duty over the last 15 years. There was an addition time or two that I was summoned but did not have to appear. In one case where I appeared, I had to ask to be excused due to a pre-existing medical appointment with a specialist that wasn't going to be rescheduled in a timely manner. In the other 2 or 3 cases I sat through the entire selection process and was not selected.

    Jury duty might be fairly described as conscription or involuntary servitude in contradiction of the 13th amendment.

    The voire dire process is clearly intended to allow the lawyers (on both sides) and the court to disqualify or avoid selecting those who are likely to be less easy to manipulate.

    There are plenty of other reasons why a liberty minded, independent person might see himself justified in avoiding jury duty.

    OTOH, how often do we complain about the outcome of jury trials be they criminal or civil? Well, what do we expect if the only folks showing up to jury selection are those who are easily manipulated, predisposed to believe the government, etc? Are we not all tired of violent criminals and crafty thieves walking free while innocent men are railroaded for "crimes" with no victims or forced into unjust settlements?

    If you are ever charged with a crime, or sued civilly, who do you want on your jury? Someone like you? Or the proverbial person who is "too stupid to get out of jury duty"?

    It only takes one member of a criminal jury to hang the jury and force a re-trial, perhaps compelling the government to offer a plea deal more in line with justice. A single, persuasive person inside the jury room in either a civil or criminal case might actually convince the other jurors to do the right thing.

    To me, jury duty is like voting. If we ever get to the point that voting and serving on a jury really are completely ineffective, we have some really unspeakable problems coming quickly. As they say:

    Liberty is protected by four boxes:
    Soap,
    Ballot,
    Jury,
    and Cartridge.

    Use them in that order.

    Charles

    Very fair points, I believe. I could see jury duty as a valid means of attempting to effect justice for another (or, perhaps, even yourself in the future, or your children, depending...) even if you don't have a "moral obligation" to it, per se. I view voting similarly, as you could probably guess, so I accept the parallel you make there.
    Advocate freedom please

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Louisville ky
    Posts
    101
    I have served and been foreman on more than one jury.
    I see it as a privilege to serve and do my best to be an unbiased juror.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    http://originalintent.org/edu/juryintro.php
    After reading from that, I have decided to either respond with the letter (modified for my location) found there or toss any further summons.

    Jury Summons Response Letter Overview

    This jury summons response letter has been used successfully by Americans who are unwilling to sign any government document without knowing what sneaky politicians and government lawyers are trying to rope them into. In the case of the Los Angeles County Jury Summons, their goal is to get you to confirm that you are a 14th Amendment citizen. If you are unaware as to why that may well be an inaccurate admission [made under penalty of perjury] for you, read http://www.originalintent.org/edu/citizenship.php

    To date, this jury letter has had a 100% success rate at stopping the jury summons process concerning the Citizens who have used it in LA County. This is because the government does not want you to know what the "legal terms" they are using really mean.

    People using this letter in counties other than Los Angeles, and in a state other than California, will have to alter the specifics accordingly, however we caution you against changing the meat of the text.
    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Larimer County, CO
    Posts
    212
    I was once notified for pre-selection of a jury and I was obligated (without my consent) to call a number at a certain time to determine if I was selected for the pool. It felt like probation.

    On the other hand I strongly believe that jury nullification is a powerful tool against tyranny.

  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Dario View Post
    I was once notified for pre-selection of a jury and I was obligated (without my consent) to call a number at a certain time to determine if I was selected for the pool. It felt like probation.

    On the other hand I strongly believe that jury nullification is a powerful tool against tyranny.
    An absurdity, of course. How can a person be obligated without having first consented.

    Lysander Spooner points out in No Treason that any such claim--where one party tried to hold another to an obligation to which he had not agreed--would be thrown out of court.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-02-2015 at 11:38 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,227
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    An absurdity, of course. How can a person be obligated without having first consented.

    Lysander Spooner points out in No Treason that any such claim--where one party tried to hold another to an obligation to which he had not agreed--would be thrown out of court.
    I go under duress.

    I educate judges.

    I spoil jury pools.

    I get ejected.

    They fear knowledge.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

  18. #18
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,227
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Liberty is protected by four boxes:
    Soap,
    Ballot,
    Jury,
    and Cartridge.

    Use them in that order.

    Charles
    Tryanny is protected by those same 4 things.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,165
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Tryanny is protected by those same 4 things.
    Very insightful! Well said. Indeed, brevity is the soul of wit.

    Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits (lets off the prolix) and guns and The Truth.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  20. #20
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Tryanny is protected by those same 4 things.
    Mmm, as Nightmare said, incredibly insightful.
    Advocate freedom please

  21. #21
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,274
    Judges hold sway over the jury and a jury of your peers is a privilege.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  22. #22
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Tryanny is protected by those same 4 things.
    +1
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    I would use my chance as a jury to help nullify bad laws. Doubt I'd be selected.

    The modern day jury is a racket that is built to support the system.

    The prosecutor should have nothing, zero, zip, nada...to do with jury selection.

    Spooner has a great essay on Trial by Jury.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,887
    a take from bob Zimmerman's The times are a-chang' as the authors of the NY Times article on In Arbitration, a ‘Privatization of the Justice System' stated:

    quote: The change has been swift and virtually unnoticed, even though it has meant that tens of millions of Americans have lost a fundamental right: their day in court.

    For companies, the allure of arbitration grew after a 2011 Supreme Court ruling cleared the way for them to use the clauses to quash class-action lawsuits. Prevented from joining together as a group in arbitration, most plaintiffs gave up entirely, records show.

    Little is known about arbitration because the proceedings are confidential and the federal government does not require cases to be reported. The secretive nature of the process makes it difficult to ascertain how fairly the proceedings are conducted.

    Winners and losers are decided by a single arbitrator who is largely at liberty to determine how much evidence a plaintiff can present and how much the defense can withhold. To deliver favorable outcomes to companies, some arbitrators have twisted or outright disregarded the law, interviews and records show. ...the man overseeing an insurance case brought by Stephen R. Syson in Santa Barbara, Calif. During a break in proceedings, a dismayed Mr. Syson said he watched the arbitrator and defense lawyer return in matching silver sports cars after going to lunch together. (He lost.) unquote

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/business/dealbook/in-arbitration-a-privatization-of-the-justice-system.html?ribbon-ad-idx=5&src=recg&mabReward=A1&module=Ribbon&version= origin&region=Header&action=click&contentCollectio n=Recommended&pgtype=article


    ipse, ThD

    PS: as mentioned elsewhere, i did just in fact receive a jury summons to call after 6pm Friday night to see if i was needed the following Monday morning. did i mention this is the Friday after turkey day?
    Last edited by solus; 11-03-2015 at 09:37 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,139
    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    ....... Doubt I'd be selected........
    I was Career Military and was never on any JP list. I would like to be able to participate in this procedure, but as stated by my friend, SVG, "Doubt I'd be selected".
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •