Jury duty and being a "U.S. Citizen"

Freedom1Man · Nov 1, 2015

Few months ago I received an information request to see about adding me to the jury pool.

Part of what they wanted me to swear to was being a "U.S. citizen," without giving the legal definition being used.

They wanted it returned within a limited time frame and since I do not receive much mail I had finally checked my mail long after it was due. I felt no obligation to answer their questions without a certified delivery of a court order to do so.

What are your experiences with jury duty, jury summons, etc? There is a hot thread in Virginia on a similar topic and I did not want to hijack that thread, so I am starting a new one for all.

Just keep it related to jury duty, juries, that kind of thing.

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DrakeZ07 · Nov 2, 2015

I've never been called to jury duty, but I hope one day to be selected for it, as one of my inner most wishes, is to decide a person's fate. Do I vote guilty, or not-guilty, do I agree with evidence, or not? To be one of twelve people, who hold the ultimate, god-like decision of someone's fate, that would and could change someone's life for ever! To be one of a pantheon of twelve GODS! SUCH POWER! I WANT IT!

stealthyeliminator · Nov 2, 2015

Freedom1Man said:
Few months ago I received an information request to see about adding me to the jury pool.

Part of what they wanted me to swear to was being a "U.S. citizen," without giving the legal definition being used.

They wanted it returned within a limited time frame and since I do not receive much mail I had finally checked my mail long after it was due. I felt no obligation to answer their questions without a certified delivery of a court order to do so.

What are your experiences with jury duty, jury summons, etc? There is a hot thread in Virginia on a similar topic and I did not want to hijack that thread, so I am starting a new one for all.

Just keep it related to jury duty, juries, that kind of thing.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

"Jury duty" is conscription, akin slavery, albeit temporary, and is immoral.

ETA - I think it very often fails to be effective and fair, as well.

There have been systems of justice that used professional jurors that I've heard good things about. I believe what we typically see as a judge might have roots in that system.

stealthyeliminator · Nov 2, 2015

Nightmare said:
Which, particularly, please, a citation?

Absolutely, Nightmare. In For a New Liberty by Murray Rothbard, the brehons of ancient Ireland are described as professional jurists on page 288. He also quotes a Joseph R. Peden who also describes them as professional jurists. He describes that they were not government officials, but were selected by disputing parties based on their reputations for wisdom, knowledge of the law, integrity, etc.

Unfortunately, I could not locate where any current judicial system is said to have been derived from or influenced by that ancient system, only where the ancient system is described as operating somewhat as judges or arbitrators, so I may have misremembered that part. Or, I may have just run out of time before finding it again. Sorry. I'll search again later.

Edit: While I read a hard copy, it looks as though the book is offered in PDF on Mises.org, free of charge. See if this links works. You should be able to skip down to page 288 and/or search for "professional jurists"
Actually at this link you can select PDF for epub format. https://mises.org/library/new-liberty-libertarian-manifesto

OC for ME · Nov 2, 2015

Jury of your peers?

skidmark · Nov 2, 2015

OC for ME said:
Jury of your peers?

You are aware of where that phrase comes from, no?

And how it has been changed through court decisions from "people like me" to "people who live generally where you do"?

stay safe.

utbagpiper · Nov 2, 2015

Freedom1Man said:
What are your experiences with jury duty, jury summons, etc? There is a hot thread in Virginia on a similar topic and I did not want to hijack that thread, so I am starting a new one for all.

I've been summoned and appeared 3 or 4 times for jury duty over the last 15 years. There was an addition time or two that I was summoned but did not have to appear. In one case where I appeared, I had to ask to be excused due to a pre-existing medical appointment with a specialist that wasn't going to be rescheduled in a timely manner. In the other 2 or 3 cases I sat through the entire selection process and was not selected.

Jury duty might be fairly described as conscription or involuntary servitude in contradiction of the 13th amendment.

The voire dire process is clearly intended to allow the lawyers (on both sides) and the court to disqualify or avoid selecting those who are likely to be less easy to manipulate.

There are plenty of other reasons why a liberty minded, independent person might see himself justified in avoiding jury duty.

OTOH, how often do we complain about the outcome of jury trials be they criminal or civil? Well, what do we expect if the only folks showing up to jury selection are those who are easily manipulated, predisposed to believe the government, etc? Are we not all tired of violent criminals and crafty thieves walking free while innocent men are railroaded for "crimes" with no victims or forced into unjust settlements?

If you are ever charged with a crime, or sued civilly, who do you want on your jury? Someone like you? Or the proverbial person who is "too stupid to get out of jury duty"?

It only takes one member of a criminal jury to hang the jury and force a re-trial, perhaps compelling the government to offer a plea deal more in line with justice. A single, persuasive person inside the jury room in either a civil or criminal case might actually convince the other jurors to do the right thing.

To me, jury duty is like voting. If we ever get to the point that voting and serving on a jury really are completely ineffective, we have some really unspeakable problems coming quickly. As they say:

Liberty is protected by four boxes:
Soap,
Ballot,
Jury,
and Cartridge.

Use them in that order.

Charles

Freedom1Man · Nov 2, 2015

Only time I have shown up, I was deselected for knowing too much about guns.

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stealthyeliminator · Nov 2, 2015

utbagpiper said:
I've been summoned and appeared 3 or 4 times for jury duty over the last 15 years. There was an addition time or two that I was summoned but did not have to appear. In one case where I appeared, I had to ask to be excused due to a pre-existing medical appointment with a specialist that wasn't going to be rescheduled in a timely manner. In the other 2 or 3 cases I sat through the entire selection process and was not selected.

Jury duty might be fairly described as conscription or involuntary servitude in contradiction of the 13th amendment.

The voire dire process is clearly intended to allow the lawyers (on both sides) and the court to disqualify or avoid selecting those who are likely to be less easy to manipulate.

There are plenty of other reasons why a liberty minded, independent person might see himself justified in avoiding jury duty.

OTOH, how often do we complain about the outcome of jury trials be they criminal or civil? Well, what do we expect if the only folks showing up to jury selection are those who are easily manipulated, predisposed to believe the government, etc? Are we not all tired of violent criminals and crafty thieves walking free while innocent men are railroaded for "crimes" with no victims or forced into unjust settlements?

If you are ever charged with a crime, or sued civilly, who do you want on your jury? Someone like you? Or the proverbial person who is "too stupid to get out of jury duty"?

It only takes one member of a criminal jury to hang the jury and force a re-trial, perhaps compelling the government to offer a plea deal more in line with justice. A single, persuasive person inside the jury room in either a civil or criminal case might actually convince the other jurors to do the right thing.

To me, jury duty is like voting. If we ever get to the point that voting and serving on a jury really are completely ineffective, we have some really unspeakable problems coming quickly. As they say:

Liberty is protected by four boxes:
Soap,
Ballot,
Jury,
and Cartridge.

Use them in that order.

Charles

Very fair points, I believe. I could see jury duty as a valid means of attempting to effect justice for another (or, perhaps, even yourself in the future, or your children, depending...) even if you don't have a "moral obligation" to it, per se. I view voting similarly, as you could probably guess, so I accept the parallel you make there.

travr6 · Nov 2, 2015

I have served and been foreman on more than one jury.
I see it as a privilege to serve and do my best to be an unbiased juror.

Freedom1Man · Nov 2, 2015

http://originalintent.org/edu/juryintro.php
After reading from that, I have decided to either respond with the letter (modified for my location) found there or toss any further summons.

Jury Summons Response Letter Overview

This jury summons response letter has been used successfully by Americans who are unwilling to sign any government document without knowing what sneaky politicians and government lawyers are trying to rope them into. In the case of the Los Angeles County Jury Summons, their goal is to get you to confirm that you are a 14th Amendment citizen. If you are unaware as to why that may well be an inaccurate admission [made under penalty of perjury] for you, read http://www.originalintent.org/edu/citizenship.php

To date, this jury letter has had a 100% success rate at stopping the jury summons process concerning the Citizens who have used it in LA County. This is because the government does not want you to know what the "legal terms" they are using really mean.

People using this letter in counties other than Los Angeles, and in a state other than California, will have to alter the specifics accordingly, however we caution you against changing the meat of the text.

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Dario · Nov 2, 2015

I was once notified for pre-selection of a jury and I was obligated (without my consent) to call a number at a certain time to determine if I was selected for the pool. It felt like probation.

On the other hand I strongly believe that jury nullification is a powerful tool against tyranny.

Citizen · Nov 2, 2015

Dario said:
I was once notified for pre-selection of a jury and I was obligated (without my consent) to call a number at a certain time to determine if I was selected for the pool. It felt like probation.

On the other hand I strongly believe that jury nullification is a powerful tool against tyranny.

An absurdity, of course. How can a person be obligated without having first consented.

Lysander Spooner points out in No Treason that any such claim--where one party tried to hold another to an obligation to which he had not agreed--would be thrown out of court.

Dave_pro2a · Nov 3, 2015

Citizen said:
An absurdity, of course. How can a person be obligated without having first consented.

Lysander Spooner points out in No Treason that any such claim--where one party tried to hold another to an obligation to which he had not agreed--would be thrown out of court.

I go under duress.

I educate judges.

I spoil jury pools.

I get ejected.

They fear knowledge.

Dave_pro2a · Nov 3, 2015

utbagpiper said:
Liberty is protected by four boxes:
Soap,
Ballot,
Jury,
and Cartridge.

Use them in that order.

Charles

Tryanny is protected by those same 4 things.

stealthyeliminator · Nov 3, 2015

Dave_pro2a said:
Tryanny is protected by those same 4 things.

Mmm, as Nightmare said, incredibly insightful.

OC for ME · Nov 3, 2015

Judges hold sway over the jury and a jury of your peers is a privilege.

sudden valley gunner · Nov 3, 2015

Dave_pro2a said:
Tryanny is protected by those same 4 things.

+1

sudden valley gunner · Nov 3, 2015

I would use my chance as a jury to help nullify bad laws. Doubt I'd be selected.

The modern day jury is a racket that is built to support the system.

The prosecutor should have nothing, zero, zip, nada...to do with jury selection.

Spooner has a great essay on Trial by Jury.

solus · Nov 3, 2015

a take from bob Zimmerman's The times are a-chang' as the authors of the NY Times article on In Arbitration, a ‘Privatization of the Justice System' stated:

quote: The change has been swift and virtually unnoticed, even though it has meant that tens of millions of Americans have lost a fundamental right: their day in court.

For companies, the allure of arbitration grew after a 2011 Supreme Court ruling cleared the way for them to use the clauses to quash class-action lawsuits. Prevented from joining together as a group in arbitration, most plaintiffs gave up entirely, records show.

Little is known about arbitration because the proceedings are confidential and the federal government does not require cases to be reported. The secretive nature of the process makes it difficult to ascertain how fairly the proceedings are conducted.

Winners and losers are decided by a single arbitrator who is largely at liberty to determine how much evidence a plaintiff can present and how much the defense can withhold. To deliver favorable outcomes to companies, some arbitrators have twisted or outright disregarded the law, interviews and records show. ...the man overseeing an insurance case brought by Stephen R. Syson in Santa Barbara, Calif. During a break in proceedings, a dismayed Mr. Syson said he watched the arbitrator and defense lawyer return in matching silver sports cars after going to lunch together. (He lost.) unquote

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/business/dealbook/in-arbitration-a-privatization-of-the-justice-system.html?ribbon-ad-idx=5&src=recg&mabReward=A1&module=Ribbon&version=origin&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Recommended&pgtype=article

ipse, ThD

PS: as mentioned elsewhere, i did just in fact receive a jury summons to call after 6pm Friday night to see if i was needed the following Monday morning. did i mention this is the Friday after turkey day?

Jury duty and being a "U.S. Citizen"

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