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An example of why I dislike "hate crime" laws

omahaoutdoors

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Readers, don't fall for it.

The problem with hate crimes is not speech or press.

The problem with hate crimes is that they criminalize thought. Murder is murder. But, if a person has a "bad" thought--for example kills a minority because he hates those in that minority--then the an additional or worse crime is committed. Thought crime, plain and simple.

Criminalizing "hate" just brings us one slide further down the slippery slope. Criminalize the actions, not the thought. When you open the thought-crime door, you open the door to government criminalizing other thoughts. As I understand it, it is now illegal to sell an old 3.2 gallon/flush toilet. Even at a yard sale. How much longer until selling a toilet, or pulling off a mattress tag, and during the transaction saying "I don't care what the government thinks" earns you an extra two years in jail or an extra $5K fine. If you can criminalize any thought, you can criminalize all thought that does not meet government's standard. Winston Smith understood this (George Orwell's 1984).

Although, I am not all surprised the that point would be missed by the quoted poster.

This is so accurate it is frightening. A crime is a crime is a crime -period. If you want to end racism, than stop making a big deal about race when crime is committed. If the law looks at people of color differently, what is to stop the average citizen from doing so.
 

nonameisgood

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Motivation for the act has always been an element of the crime for things like murder. Motive is important. Malice is a variable thing. Race- or gender-motivated crime is every bit as malicious as one motivated by hate. And you don't have to have hatred for a race to accept that they are inferior and can be exterminated without further regard, as psychotic as that sounds. Some people actually think that "getting rid" of people different from themselves is a form of self-defense or defense of mankind. This is the best reason for having SOME hate crime designations that really are not about actual hate.


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nonameisgood

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"To defend mankind from a threat of bloodline contamination or dangerous religion". It's not hate, it is a delusional perception of risk and self-preservation. As I said, it is a terribly twisted philosophy, but it does take a certain lack of thought/logic/brain function to be a murderer, right?


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Freedom1Man

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Steal a iPhone 6s from a black man. - because he is black?
Steal a iPhone 6s from a white man. - because he has a iPhone 6s?
What about an Asian man? You discrimination so easily...
😈
[emoji651] [emoji651] [emoji652] [emoji652] [emoji653] [emoji654] [emoji653] [emoji654]

Yes, the laws and people who both pass and enforce them, are that stupid.



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utbagpiper

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Interesting, a hate crime could be applied for cruelty to a animal.

Note that the list of "primary offenses" which contains the "cruelty to animals" (4(i)) is the list of crimes eligible for "hate crime" enhancements. It is not the animal that is protected by the hate crime enhancement, but the owner, parallel to ability to add hate crime enhancements for property damage, criminal trespass, or theft as contained in 4(b), 4(c), and 4(d).

In other words, (the reasoning behind the laws goes) beating your dog because the criminal dislikes your race or religion and is attempting to terrorize you, is worse than if he beats your dog because he is a psychopath who likes to see animals suffer. In like manner (again, according to the law) vandalism, criminal trespass or theft for mere financial gain or just to be a jerk is not as serious a crime as the exact same conduct with some intent to terrorize you (and others in your demographic) because the criminal hates your race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

While I can see some degree of rationality in making a distinction between a crime that affects a single victim and a crime whose intent is to victimize an entire class of persons, I do not believe the law and legal system is capable of applying such a fine distinction in an impartial manner. As the case I reported in the OP highlights, it is just far too common for authorities, the media, and others to treat crimes against politically popular minorities differently than they respond to the same physical acts against majorities or politically unpopular minorities.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Steal a iPhone 6s from a black man. - because he is black?
Steal a iPhone 6s from a white man. - because he has a iPhone 6s?

Precisely. And that is the practical problem with these laws (in addition to the principled problems including that of looking at victims as members of a class rather than as individuals).

In practice, a crime committed against a politically favored minority (black, Hispanic, Muslim, homosexual, Black Panther or a Black Liberation Church) is often presumed to have been committed because of some bias or bigotry or desire to intimidate an entire class of persons; while the same crime committed against a majority (male, white, heterosexual, Christian) or unpopular minority (white supremacist, rich person) is presumed to have been committed without any bias.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Motivation for the act has always been an element of the crime for things like murder. Motive is important.

Motive and circumstance are the difference between negligent manslaughter, intentional manslaughter, murder, capital murder, and justifiable homicide (or self-defense). In each case, there is a dead body. But the reason the body is dead--including largely whether the person causing the death intended to kill the person or was simply careless, or was reckless, whether the death occurred in the heat of the moment, whether it was preplanned, whether it was necessary to protect innocent life and limb, etc are all pretty much objective matters that can be supported or refuted with evidence.

How do we determine whether the noose hung in a tree (perhaps as part of a home being toilet papered) or the old flaming bag of fresh dog droppings on the porch are merely part of stupid (and excessive) adolescent hijinks on Halloween or intended to send some ominous message to the residents of the home? If the perpetrators are not close neighbors how do we prove they even knew the race, religion, or sexual orientation of the residents? If the victims happen to be black, homosexual, and/or Islamic it seems the authorities--from initial investigating officers right on through to prosecutors and judges--are more likely to look for some kind of (unapproved) hate or bias than if the victims are white, heterosexual, and Christian.

In the case I reported in the OP, the assailants allegedly yelled anti-homosexual slurs at the victim as they assaulted him. If the victim were homosexual, this would presumably be evidence the crime was committed because of bigotry against homosexuals. But since he isn't (near as I can tell at this point), those anti-homosexual slurs are interpreted to be nothing more than pedestrian insults against someone dislikes enough to assault him without provocation.



Malice is a variable thing. Race- or gender-motivated crime is every bit as malicious as one motivated by hate. And you don't have to have hatred for a race to accept that they are inferior and can be exterminated without further regard, as psychotic as that sounds. Some people actually think that "getting rid" of people different from themselves is a form of self-defense or defense of mankind. This is the best reason for having SOME hate crime designations that really are not about actual hate.

You'll note that Utah's "hate crime" law is written in precisely this way. In fact, despite the title, our "hate crime" laws don't actually mention hate at all. The enhancement is based on an intent to intimidate or terrorize a victim into "reasonably fear[ing] to freely exercise or enjoy any right secured by the Constitution or laws of the state or by the Constitution or laws of the United States." It is an enhancement to a fairly short list of enumerated primary offenses. I don't know that a better bias crime law could be written.

And yet, time and time again, I've seen crimes committed against majority demographics or politically unfavored minorities assumed from the get-go not to be "hate crimes" while the same crime committed against politically favored minorities are assumed and investigated, then prosecuted as hate crimes.

In other words, even if some principled justification for bias enhancements can be made, in practice these laws seem to be most often applied in a very un-even, inequitable manner. They are not unlike Jim-Crow-era gun control laws that were written in a race neutral fashion (in contrast with antebellum laws that singled out blacks), but were almost exclusively enforced only against blacks or other unpopular minorities.

Charles
 
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utbagpiper

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Funny you mention that. Just today, FourthAmendment.com referenced a story about police using a computer program to predict where crime will be more likely to occur.

Rather than divert this thread, I'm thinking it deserves its own thread. I'll let you decide.

I'll happily join a discussion of this topic on another thread, Citizen.

As a teaser, I think it is far different to use statistics and computer modeling to know where to most effectively deploy police for a deterrent effect or decreased response time when crime occurs, than it is to presume to read the mind of an accused criminal to determine the exact reason he committed a crime; or even to decide that dislike of blacks is worse than dislike of the wealthy.

But let's take that discussion to its own thread rather than divert this thread.

Thanks

Charles
 
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Dave_pro2a

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I'll happily join a discussion of this topic on another thread, Citizen.

As a teaser, I think it is far different to use statistics and computer modeling to know where to most effectively deploy police for a deterrent effect or decreased response time when crime occurs, than it is to presume to read the mind of an accused criminal to determine the exact reason he committed a crime; or even to decide that dislike of blacks is worse than dislike of the wealthy.

But let's take that discussion to its own thread rather than divert this thread.

Thanks

Charles

The CJS can't even predict which LEO officers will become rapists, murdering thieves while wearing a badge.

Leaves me with little faith they will ever accurately predict, anything.
 

OC for ME

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76-3-203.4. Hate crimes -- Aggravating factors.

(1) The sentencing judge or the Board of Pardons and Parole shall consider in their deliberations as an aggravating factor the public harm resulting from the commission of the offense, including the degree to which the offense is likely to incite community unrest or cause members of the community to reasonably fear for their physical safety or to freely exercise or enjoy any right secured by the Constitution or laws of the state or by the Constitution or laws of the United States.
This applies to animals?

Missouri does not list cruelty to animals in their "hate crime" statute. Maybe MO is behind the curve in this regard.
 

DrakeZ07

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My only qualm with 'hate-crime' laws, are that they are never equally enforced. My idiot-Brother was a recent victim of a hate-crime, by several black youths, who used a couple BB pistols to shoot out his apartment's window, while yelling '*onky', 'cr*cker' '*hitey*, etc. When he called me first, and said he'd been shot at [Never tell your gun-nut friend that you've been shot at, for the love of ALL that is good with the world, BE SPECIFIC] and I showed up ready for the apocalypse, along with one of Lexington PD's finest, it struck me that; 'I'm better armed right now than this cop... AND I'm the only one wearing Kevlar...' ANYWAY, to make it a long-story short, the LPD sent a black cop, who when I inferred that the crime was a possible hate crime, mentioned "I see nothing here that suggests it was a hate crime, just an act of kids being kids". [Yes, I've written a complaint to the LPD]. The cop mentioned that because my brother is in the "vast majority", being white, christian, and in "good standing", there is no risk of the crime against him, being motivated by hate.

I'm all for hate crimes legislation, and laws, primarily because I'm openly gay, and have had my fair share of encounters with people of various racial backgrounds, who have targetted my sexuality, and wouldn't have confronted me at all if I wasn't openly gay; But the on caveat in the laws, is the under appreciation by figures of law enforcement for the all encompassing nature of hate-motivated crimes.

A person who kills another, because of some mental defect, or anger issues, is guilty of murder; a person who kills another because of a tangible racial, or other specific criminal reason, is guilty of a murder AND a hate crime. To me, Hate crime laws just add another element of prosecution, and penalty, to an existing penalty. But I've noticed that as oft the case, the hate crime is used IN PLACE OF the original crime. Granted, that a person has to have hate on their minds in the first place, to murder someone else, and that makes crimes like murder, in and of itself, a crime of hate; and therefore, all crimes are crimes of hate, in one form or another. But to target someone based solely on that victims race, sexuality, or birthplace, and to hurt them moreso because of it, well, that takes hate to a whole new level, and must be punished accordingly.

Though, myself, I see the debate of the others in the thread, mentioning that hate-crime laws come across as being 'thought-crime' laws, and a means down a slippery slope of potential, and future, crimes against our very thought, as being childish, and a theory that only children, and people who have wanton, and very real, thoughts of profound hate, and wish to one day, exercise said hate, without the fear of being tried for a hate crime.

Hate crime laws don't punish ANYONE for what they may or may not be thinking at any giving time, ONLY when they COMMIT a crime, MOTIVATED, by a hateful thought. For instance, and I'm using myself willingly as a subject in this quagmire of discussion; I often have THOUGHTS, of how amusing it'd be if all the religious and spiritual people of the world, was put on a lone land-mass, like say, Australia, and then have Nuclear warheads rained down on them, that the world would be a far, far better place. That's not an illegal thought, that's not a hateful [as defined by Kentucky, and Federal, laws, I know because I've got a very good lawyer friend who often thinks the same way too] thought, and is not punishable by any legal means to date. Now, if I was thinking how wonderful it would be if all the religious people in any given area, was slaughtered mercilessly, AND THEN went out and DID SUCH... That would be a crime of hate beyond just the crime of a murder spree, and would subject me to a hate crime, or multiple ones. Although personally, and IN MY OPINION of free thought, Hate crime laws shouldn't involve religion, unless it's to punish anyone who targets someone else, who is non-religious, but I digress.
 

Citizen

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SNIP I'm all for hate crimes legislation, and laws, primarily because I'm openly gay, and have had my fair share of encounters with people of various racial backgrounds, who have targetted my sexuality, and wouldn't have confronted me at all if I wasn't openly gay;

Oh!

I'm surprised.

To this point in your post history, I didn't realize you considered yourself more equal than others.

Nor, did I realize your willingness to diminish the offense against a non-gay man or woman. Say, for example, a straight man or woman is killed in the course of a street robbery (mugging). I didn't realize your willingness to make their death less and offense than a killing of a gay or transgender motivated by a thought.

I guess I kinda figured that since you supported equality for the LBGT community, that you supported equality.

As I mentioned above, if government can criminalize a thought, then it can criminalize any thought.

Separately, this is a very old lesson already learned.[SUP]1[/SUP] Under Elizabeth I heresy and recusancy (a recusant was someone who would not attending church services in the Anglican church despite law commanding attendance) were offenses.

You didn't have to actually express heretical views publicly. All that was needed was government suspicion that you might harbor heretical views, then "confess" to holding these ideas under interrogation. As a side note, this was a major point of the oath ex officio--to pressure you into "confessing" ideas and attitudes. After you swore an oath to tell the truth (the oath ex officio), many of the questions involved attitudes and ideas, far more than just actual actions.

Regarding recusancy, if you were suspected of not attending church, you could be dragged in for questioning. Again, the oath ex officio. Again, many questions designed to discover attitudes and ideas. Note: I'm a little foggier on this point, so, if somebody has more hard data that contradicts, just let me know.



1. My source for these comments is The Fifth Amendment: The Right Against Self-Incrimination by Leonard Levy. Levy won the Pulitzer Prize in history for this book in the early 1970's. The book is still available in paperback. Levy puts together an amazing history that is both compelling and easy to read. It is definitely not a dry history book.
 
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nonameisgood

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Without motive and malice, murder is not murder. Making hate toward a class of people a distinct "kind" of murder is not criminalizing thought. There should certainly be nothing wrong with considering a person's hate for the victim's race when considering a homicide by that person.


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utbagpiper

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Without motive and malice, murder is not murder.

I suspect most professional killers and many psychopaths have little or no malice toward their victims. Murder for hire and murder as part of serial killings are still murder.

Motive makes the difference between whether a dead body is the result of murder, manslaughter, or self-defense. But in such cases, motive can generally be determined fairly objectively from the evidence at hand.

How do you objectively determine whether the slew of anti-homosexual epithets actually indicated a hatred of homosexuals, or whether they were being used as inarticulate, pedestrian insults? When there is no direct interaction between criminal and victim (such as when the crime is vandalism of property), how do you determine whether there was a hate crime or not? "Your honor, my client doesn't hate Mormons/Catholics/Jews/Muslims. He just happened to vandalize that house of worship because he was bored and it was close by."

Making hate toward a class of people a distinct "kind" of murder is not criminalizing thought. There should certainly be nothing wrong with considering a person's hate for the victim's race when considering a homicide by that person.

What makes "hate" toward the victim's race or sexual orientation any worse than hate toward the victim's salary or net worth, or hate toward the victim's driving skills (danged left lane loafers), or anything else?

Why is "the knockdown game" less offensive and deserving of less punishment than "gay bashing"?

In theory, I can accept that a crime intended to victimize a large group of persons (even if not all of them are present at the moment the crime is committed) is more serious than a crime with a single victim, all else being equal.

But that leaves two really big holes.

1-In most so-called "hate crime" statutes, specific categories of persons are called out as getting special protection. The legislature picks winners and losers. Hatred against sexual orientation or race is double bad, while hatred against non-union workers or rich people is only sorta bad.

2-Even in the rare cases--like in Utah--where hate crime laws are written in a neutral fashion, the application is most often un-even as even Drake concedes. Crimes committed against politically favored minorities (racial, sexual, religious) are much more likely to get investigated, prosecuted, and enhanced as hate crime violations than are similar crimes committed against majority demographics or even non-favored minorities.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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My only qualm with 'hate-crime' laws, are that they are never equally enforced. ..... The cop mentioned that because my brother is in the "vast majority", being white, christian, and in "good standing", there is no risk of the crime against him, being motivated by hate.

Any law that is "never equally enforced" is a bad law....even if it were founded on good and solid principles.

As your own admission below reveals, a person can be consumed by raw hatred of any group. Thankfully you've yet to act on your hatred. But clearly others are no so restrained.

I'm all for hate crimes legislation, and laws, primarily because I'm openly gay, and have had my fair share of encounters with people of various racial backgrounds, who have targetted my sexuality, and wouldn't have confronted me at all if I wasn't openly gay;

I suspect a lot of rape victims would not have been targeted for rape had they not been "openly female."

I suspect a lot of victims of muggings would not have been targeted for theft had they not been openly aged, infirm, weaker, slower, or alone.

I have a hard time understanding why targeting someone because of sexual orientation is materially worse than targeting someone because she is female, or because he is aged, or appears to be wealthy.

I can concede that a crime committed with intent to victimize many is worse than a crime that is intended to only victimize a single person. So if someone is deliberately attempting to make certain groups scared to live, work, or recreate in certain areas that is a more serious matter than would be individual assaults or acts of vandalism without such intent. But this strikes me as different than singling out a victim because of dislike for some aspect about that victim.

A person who kills another, because of some mental defect, or anger issues, is guilty of murder; a person who kills another because of a tangible racial, or other specific criminal reason, is guilty of a murder AND a hate crime.

Depends on the jurisdiction. In Utah, hate crime is not a separate crime, but is rather a sentencing enhancement. The original crime is elevated one degree in seriousness and the sentencing judge and Board of Pardons and Parole can take into account the effect of the crime on the larger community when determining sentencing, release dates, etc.

But to target someone based solely on that victims race, sexuality, or birthplace, and to hurt them moreso because of it, well, that takes hate to a whole new level, and must be punished accordingly.

Can you explain why racism, bigotry toward sexual orientation, or hatred of a religion is materially worse than class envy (hating and attacking a man because of his income or wealth) or targeting someone because he is not a union member (ie is a "scab" willing to cross a picket line)?

Though, myself, I see the debate of the others in the thread, mentioning that hate-crime laws come across as being 'thought-crime' laws, and a means down a slippery slope of potential, and future, crimes against our very thought, as being childish, and a theory that only children, and people who have wanton, and very real, thoughts of profound hate, and wish to one day, exercise said hate, without the fear of being tried for a hate crime.

Interesting, because the most significant and overt bigotry and hatred I've ever seen manifest among this group (other than toward various government officials or government itself), has come from you toward religion. We've had a couple of folks get a lot of their posts deleted for using impolite words to refer to homosexuals or homosexual sexual conduct. But I've never seen anyone else admit to fantasizing about using nuclear weapons to annihilate groups of persons for their peaceful beliefs and private religious practices the way you have below.


Hate crime laws don't punish ANYONE for what they may or may not be thinking at any giving time, ONLY when they COMMIT a crime, MOTIVATED, by a hateful thought. For instance, and I'm using myself willingly as a subject in this quagmire of discussion; I often have THOUGHTS, of how amusing it'd be if all the religious and spiritual people of the world, was put on a lone land-mass, like say, Australia, and then have Nuclear warheads rained down on them, that the world would be a far, far better place. That's not an illegal thought, that's not a hateful [as defined by Kentucky, and Federal, laws, I know because I've got a very good lawyer friend who often thinks the same way too] thought, and is not punishable by any legal means to date. Now, if I was thinking how wonderful it would be if all the religious people in any given area, was slaughtered mercilessly, AND THEN went out and DID SUCH... That would be a crime of hate beyond just the crime of a murder spree, and would subject me to a hate crime, or multiple ones. Although personally, and IN MY OPINION of free thought, Hate crime laws shouldn't involve religion, unless it's to punish anyone who targets someone else, who is non-religious, but I digress.
[/quote]
(emphasis added)

I wonder what extra penalty you think should attach if you should ever commit ANY crime against a person who happens to be religious. Oh, I see, you don't think any should attack in that direction, but should there should be extra penalties only if an atheist is targeted. Not even pretending to be even-handed or consistent, it seems.

Yet again, I am shocked beyond civil ability to express. Your bigotry is truly ugly.

Were someone to have posted similar mass murderous fantasies regarding homosexuals and then ever committed any crime against a person who happened to be homosexual, I strongly suspect there'd be no shortage of outraged liberals demanding his head, no matter how minor the crime or how lacking any evidence that he targeted the individual victim because of sexual orientation.

But the internet lives forever. And having posted your very disturbing fantasies, they will be here should you ever commit a crime--however minor-against another person. In this nation, odds are good that person will just happen to be religious.

Of course, given the unequal application of hate crime laws, and your particular demographic, you are probably at very low risk. But heaven help the person who has expressed far less than you have regarding disagreement with a politically favored minority group and then ever commits a crime against someone who happens to be a member of such a group.

Regardless, you really should seek some professional help for your anger and hatred issues. Such things strike me as very unhealthy, generally, and a huge liability for anyone who chooses to carry a gun in public.

Charles
 
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J_dazzle23

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An example of why I dislike "hate crime" laws

Any law that is "never equally enforced" is a bad law....even if it were founded on good and solid principles.

As your own admission below reveals, a person can be consumed by raw hatred of any group. Thankfully you've yet to act on your hatred. But clearly others are no so restrained.



I suspect a lot of rape victims would not have been targeted for rape had they not been "openly female."

I suspect a lot of victims of muggings would not have been targeted for theft had they not been openly aged, infirm, weaker, slower, or alone.

I have a hard time understanding why targeting someone because of sexual orientation is materially worse than targeting someone because she is female, or because he is aged, or appears to be wealthy.

I can concede that a crime committed with intent to victimize many is worse than a crime that is intended to only victimize a single person. So if someone is deliberately attempting to make certain groups scared to live, work, or recreate in certain areas that is a more serious matter than would be individual assaults or acts of vandalism without such intent. But this strikes me as different than singling out a victim because of dislike for some aspect about that victim.



Depends on the jurisdiction. In Utah, hate crime is not a separate crime, but is rather a sentencing enhancement. The original crime is elevated one degree in seriousness and the sentencing judge and Board of Pardons and Parole can take into account the effect of the crime on the larger community when determining sentencing, release dates, etc.



Can you explain why racism, bigotry toward sexual orientation, or hatred of a religion is materially worse than class envy (hating and attacking a man because of his income or wealth) or targeting someone because he is not a union member (ie is a "scab" willing to cross a picket line)?



Interesting, because the most significant and overt bigotry and hatred I've ever seen manifest among this group (other than toward various government officials or government itself), has come from you toward religion. We've had a couple of folks get a lot of their posts deleted for using impolite words to refer to homosexuals or homosexual sexual conduct. But I've never seen anyone else admit to fantasizing about using nuclear weapons to annihilate groups of persons for their peaceful beliefs and private religious practices the way you have below.



(emphasis added)

I wonder what extra penalty you think should attach if you should ever commit ANY crime against a person who happens to be religious. Oh, I see, you don't think any should attack in that direction, but should there should be extra penalties only if an atheist is targeted. Not even pretending to be even-handed or consistent, it seems.

Yet again, I am shocked beyond civil ability to express. Your bigotry is truly ugly.

Were someone to have posted similar mass murderous fantasies regarding homosexuals and then ever committed any crime against a person who happened to be homosexual, I strongly suspect there'd be no shortage of outraged liberals demanding his head, no matter how minor the crime or how lacking any evidence that he targeted the individual victim because of sexual orientation.

But the internet lives forever. And having posted your very disturbing fantasies, they will be here should you ever commit a crime--however minor-against another person. In this nation, odds are good that person will just happen to be religious.

Of course, given the unequal application of hate crime laws, and your particular demographic, you are probably at very low risk. But heaven help the person who has expressed far less than you have regarding disagreement with a politically favored minority group and then ever commits a crime against someone who happens to be a member of such a group.

Regardless, you really should seek some professional help for your anger and hatred issues. Such things strike me as very unhealthy, generally, and a huge liability for anyone who chooses to carry a gun in public.

Charles

27b3fb17fc519c43bcf454626c59bfc1.jpg



So....hate crime laws are ok for some, but not for others. And to think that the "so you think some people are more equal than others" has not been leveled here makes me wonder where everyone went LOL

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