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Thread: Question about CCW and Carry at 19 years of age.

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    Question about CCW and Carry at 19 years of age.

    Hello all,
    From my research of MO law on carry of firearms and requirements for CCW Permits, I'm fairly positive I qualify on all points in everything I have read. The only issue in having is finding how purchasing a handgun would go for. As far as I've seen, I have to be 21 to purchase from a dealer, and 18 to purchase private party. But I'm really sketched about buying used handguns, not knowing the history. But it also say registration of firearms is not required in MO. So would I be able to have my dad purchase the handgun I would like once I find one I feel is right, then just carry it under my permit? Or could be transfer it to me as gift? Really Apprecite any help and info I could receive from other members.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GT_Eleanor View Post
    Hello all,
    From my research of MO law on carry of firearms and requirements for CCW Permits, I'm fairly positive I qualify on all points in everything I have read. The only issue in having is finding how purchasing a handgun would go for. As far as I've seen, I have to be 21 to purchase from a dealer, and 18 to purchase private party. But I'm really sketched about buying used handguns, not knowing the history. But it also say registration of firearms is not required in MO. So would I be able to have my dad purchase the handgun I would like once I find one I feel is right, then just carry it under my permit? Or could be transfer it to me as gift? Really Apprecite any help and info I could receive from other members.
    You seem to have the ages correct and also correct that there is no MO gun registration, so I believe the only thing to be worried of is ensuring that this doesn't classify as a straw purchase.

    If I understand correctly, Abramski v. US, (*1), would indicate that your father cannot purchase it on your behalf and transfer or sell it to you. (This case was nephew/uncle, so family is NOT exempted). At issue is Form 4473 (*2) question 11a where he would be required to indicate that he is "the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm". If you give him money to purchase it, or agree to purchase it from him afterwards, he would be treated as your agent, and answering this question as "yes, he is the actual buyer" could be a felony straw purchase.

    But it looks like him buying it for you as a gift is a good option. Following this same form, on page 4, clarifying question 11.a. "You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party." It goes on to state explicitly that it must be purchased with the purchasers own money and then given as a present. So no gimmicks where he gifts it to you and you gift him the money, or things like that... they threw "legitimate" in there to ensure no games were played.

    If you live in the same household, I don't see any reason he couldn't purchase it for himself but allow you to carry it whenever you like. I believe that CCW allows you to carry any firearm you legally can possess, not limited to ones you own, so any member of the household with a CCW should be able to carry it. If you live in a separate house, I'd worry about it being a gray area in the straw purchase as far as transferring to someone else (if he didn't "gift" it to you).

    If he doesn't have the money to gift it to you... have him purchase it, then shoot it a bunch at a range for a couple months before selling it to you. Adjust both the time and usage to an amount that you would feel comfortable defending as him having purchased it for himself before reselling.


    *1) http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files...united-states/
    *2) https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

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    It would need to be purchased by someone of age ( eg: family member or friend ) and Gifted to you.

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    STLDaniel, et al., why not let the nice FFL, trained by the nice ATF, properly do the documentation.

    ipse

    PS STL, you did misinterpret Abramski case! it was discussed in depth on this forum...
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    STLDaniel, et al., why not let the nice FFL, trained by the nice ATF, properly do the documentation.
    Other than the purchase by the father, there's no documentation an FFL can perform in this situation. The poster is under 18, seeking a handgun. He cannot purchase from an FFL, nor can an FFL transfer the firearm to him.
    From: https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-an...gun-unlicensed
    A Federal firearms licensee may not, however, sell or deliver a firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to a person the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under 21 years of age.

    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    PS STL, you did misinterpret Abramski case! it was discussed in depth on this forum...
    Thanks. With no reasoning given, not even a link to the thread that you say would clear this up for me, this was very helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STLDaniel View Post
    Other than the purchase by the father, there's no documentation an FFL can perform in this situation. The poster is under 18, seeking a handgun. He cannot purchase from an FFL, nor can an FFL transfer the firearm to him.
    From: https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-an...gun-unlicensed
    A Federal firearms licensee may not, however, sell or deliver a firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to a person the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under 21 years of age.


    Thanks. With no reasoning given, not even a link to the thread that you say would clear this up for me, this was very helpful.
    sorry al gore's invention is broken in your neck of the woods

    stldaniel quote: If I understand correctly, Abramski v. US, (*1), would indicate that your father cannot purchase it on your behalf and transfer or sell it to you. (This case was nephew/uncle, so family is NOT exempted).

    In 2009, Bruce Abramski Jr. offered to buy a handgun for his uncle, Angel Alvarez — even though Alvarez could legally purchase the gun for himself because Abramski believed he could get a discount.
    Alvarez sent Abramski a check for $400, and on November 17, 2009, Abramski purchased a Glock 19 handgun for Alvarez from a federally licensed dealer in Virginia.
    http://harvardlawreview.org/2014/11/...united-states/


    http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files...united-states/

    https://www.oyez.org/cases/2013/12-1493

    the man went into the store w/premeditation to misrepresent who the actual purchaser was and was paid to do so prior to entering the store.

    hopefully that clears up your misrepresentation of this case of a former LE who turned bank robber.
    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 11-12-2015 at 10:39 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by STLDaniel View Post
    Other than the purchase by the father, there's no documentation an FFL can perform in this situation. The poster is under 18, seeking a handgun. He cannot purchase from an FFL, nor can an FFL transfer the firearm to him.
    From: https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-an...gun-unlicensed
    A Federal firearms licensee may not, however, sell or deliver a firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to a person the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under 21 years of age.
    Thanks. With no reasoning given, not even a link to the thread that you say would clear this up for me, this was very helpful.
    i'm sorry but completion of the 4473 isn't documentation? my statement still stands, let the nice FFL, trained by the BATF, do their job and quit spewing misinformation.

    ipse

    interestingly to note you failed to quote the whole site's wording that you cited:
    question: May an individual between the ages of 18 and 21 years of age acquire a handgun from an unlicensed individual who is also a resident of that same State?


    An individual between 18 and 21 years of age may acquire a handgun from an unlicensed individual who resides in the same State, provided the person acquiring the handgun is not otherwise prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A Federal firearms licensee may not, however, sell or deliver a firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to a person the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under 21 years of age.


    There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

    kinda think the bolded portion is relative to the converstation don't you...oh btw this kinda of info is what the FFL knows about so my statement is even more important!
    Last edited by solus; 11-12-2015 at 10:46 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    the man went into the store w/premeditation to misrepresent who the actual purchaser was and was paid to do so prior to entering the store.

    hopefully that clears up your misrepresentation of this case of a former LE who turned bank robber.
    I see no misrepresentation in that, but is actually very much in line with my representation. Case referenced, nephew planned in advance to purchase a firearm on behalf of his uncle. OP's question whether or not father can purchase firearm on sons behalf. Case referenced, as I represented, would indicate you can not plan ahead to have a family member purchase a firearm for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i'm sorry but completion of the 4473 isn't documentation? my statement still stands, let the nice FFL, trained by the BATF, do their job and quit spewing misinformation.
    4473 is documentation. That would have to be filled out by the father when purchasing the firearm from an FFL. The son would have to fill out 4473 for the FFL to transfer a firearm to the son. When the son indicates his age on form 4473 as being under 21, the FFL would refuse the transfer.

    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    interestingly to note you failed to quote the whole site's wording that you cited:
    I see no reason to post the entire site here, as that's why the links here. I sited relevant portions needed. The rest continues to support my position as I'll outline for you:

    An individual between 18 and 21 years of age may acquire a handgun from an unlicensed individual who resides in the same State, provided the person acquiring the handgun is not otherwise prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law.
    I did not quote this from the site earlier because everyone is already clear on the fact that 18-20 can acquire guns from unlicensed individuals in MO.

    continuining was the portion I quoted.
    A Federal firearms licensee may not, however, sell or deliver a firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to a person the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under 21 years of age.
    Followed by additional, that you bolded:
    There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    kinda think the bolded portion is relative to the converstation don't you...oh btw this kinda of info is what the FFL knows about so my statement is even more important!
    To answer your question, yes, I do think additional local or State regulations would definitely be relative to this conversation. If you are aware of any we've missed, please include them. I've done my best to site all that I know of, but do not know every law. That's part of why I love participating in this forum, as together we're stronger than apart. I don't feel I indicated anywhere that additional state or local regs where unimportant, but if I gave that impression, please forgive me.

    And I agree with you, an FFL would be a great resource to contact if anyone has any doubt that they were able to find all the pertinent laws and regulations for a particular purchase or case. I did not mean to imply that anyone should not use this valuable resource and consult with them. I only stated that they could not process a transfer or purchase of a handgun to someone under 21 years of age.

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