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Thread: Vet Admin hospital bans saying Merry Christmas

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    Vet Admin hospital bans saying Merry Christmas

    From Breitbart - Thank goodness the VA is now focused - like a laser -on providing the best medical care to veterans....



    ...the “Executive Leadership Team” at the Salem VA Medical Center banned Christmas trees, as well as other Christian speech and celebrations. As reported by local media, an email sent by senior staff to the center’s employees reads in part:

    …Public areas may only be decorated in a manner that is celebratory of the winter season. Displays must not promote any religion. Please note that trees (regardless of the types of ornaments used) have been deemed to promote the Christian religion and will not be permitted in any public areas this year.

    Just hours ago, pressure from the center’s employees caused the management team to cave on the Christmas tree ban. Christmas trees are back in at the facility.

    However, the email goes on to say that private religious expressions can only be uttered in “personal work areas.” That means employees can only speak freely in places where the public usually cannot enter and, even then, only if the recipient would clearly understand that the speaker is speaking in his personal capacity only.

    In other words, an employee could be punished for wishing “Merry Christmas” to a veteran in the lobby or any other public area.



    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...rry-christmas/


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    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-22-2015 at 02:49 PM. Reason: fix title - avoid confusion
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Thread title is a bit misleading... still an interesting situation.
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    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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    One might argue that the bureaucrats are idiots for banning Christmas (in a manner of speaking).

    I think that would fall short, though. The real problem is the bureaucratic tendency to regulate everything, that is, create a policy in the first place.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    --snipped--The real problem is the bureaucratic tendency to regulate everything, that is, create a policy in the first place.
    There is a flip side to that. Some rile at regulations, rules and the enforcement of them, particularly the ones with which they individually and singularly do not agree. Challenging these becomes a preoccupation with no real merit.

    Solo, A Cappella performances are not automatically as melodious/wonderful as some would have you believe.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-21-2015 at 06:27 PM. Reason: fixed
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    This will be one of my many Festivus grievances !

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    Be sure to wear your Festivus Kippah, and to your Kwaanzaa demonstration too

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Never mind that the trees are pagan, and not Christian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Never mind that the trees are pagan, and not Christian.
    You may be mistaken.

    The Christbaum or Weihnachtsbaum or "Tannenbaum" was decorated by Martin Luther in the Sixteenth Century. Earlier, Saint Boniface (Winfrid) of the Sixth Century felled Thor's Oak (or Donar's Oak), worshiped by pagans, and replaced it with the evergreen Tannenbaum which points Heavenward and symbolizes the Trinity.

    You may be mistaking the Jul or Yule. The Jul circle, a log-end, symbolized the turning cycle of the year to my ancestors and my neighbors, among whom our Christmas Blessing may be God Jul, for the rebirth and new year promise of Easter - also from the pagans.

    Here, our Celtic and Scandinavian Christian cultures have merged into an active and wholesome whole, particularly at Christmas. Here is our Stavekirke chapel, a ship-built replica of an Eleventh Century chapel, a mission of Trinity Lutheran Church just across the street. Uniquely, in the rafters hangs the carpenters' tool-belt of my neighbor that died in a construction accident;

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    Last edited by Nightmare; 11-21-2015 at 08:59 PM.
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    And what is their policy on we veterans wishing each other, or the staff, Merry Christmas while at the facility?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There is a flip side to that. Some rile at regulations, rules and the enforcement of them, particularly the ones with which they individually and singularly do not agree. Challenging these becomes a preoccupation with no real merit.

    Solo, A Cappella performances are not automatically as melodious/wonderful as some would have you believe.
    Two questions.

    1. Who exactly are these some?

    2. Who exactly are the solo, a cappella performers?
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-21-2015 at 10:44 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    When I was a young lad I was exempt from the Vietnam war in the draft lottery. My mummy said if I volunteered anyway I would get VA benefits, but I would not be allowed to say Merry Christmas. Or not volunteer and be eligible for Hillery Care.

    Boy, was she ever wrong.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Never mind that the trees are pagan, and not Christian.

    sure throw that into the mix...

    awaiting for the discussion from 'he who shall not be named' to embellish how the tree was saved and now a viable decoration for the christian holidays... (sarcasm, sorta)

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 11-22-2015 at 12:01 AM.
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    I notice that this is all being directed at the Christians. (Not all of them, just the annoying ones.)

    You should hear the fairy tales associated with the winter solstice celebrations of other religions. But somehow they are apparently not offensive enough?

    "Christ" has been out of Christmas on a cultural/social level since well before The New York Sun told little Virginia there really is a Santa Claus, or Currier and Ives first came up with the idea of making money selling cards with pictures of families embarrassing them selves wearing matching humiliating sweaters.

    Just for giggles, beat the ban on Christmas trees by claiming it's a Channukah bush - and get video of The Powers That Be when they try to deal with that.

    stay safe.
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    I volunteered in 1969 and am not eligible for VA benefits for means testing. VA benefits are for the least capable only.
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    When I was a young lad I was exempt from the Vietnam war in the draft lottery. My mummy said if I volunteered anyway I would get VA benefits, but I would not be allowed to say Merry Christmas. Or not volunteer and be eligible for Hillery Care.

    Boy, was she ever wrong.
    Boy, that is a comment freighted with unsaid meaning.

    +1
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I volunteered in 1969 and am not eligible for VA benefits for means testing. VA benefits are for the least capable only.
    You want to explain that? Especially the last part?

    Regardless of your income (means test) you should be eligible as Category 8 - unless you waited too long before trying to enroll. http://veteransunited.org/vacategories.htm http://www.military.com/benefits/vet...igibility.html

    stay safe.
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    Why can't people just take well wishing as well wishing?I don't care if they wish me a merry happy kwanza, satan, allah, yahweh, thor, flying spaghetti monster........I'd say thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Why can't people just take well wishing as well wishing?I don't care if they wish me a merry happy kwanza, satan, allah, yahweh, thor, flying spaghetti monster........I'd say thank you.
    +1
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Why can't people just take well wishing as well wishing?I don't care if they wish me a merry happy kwanza, satan, allah, yahweh, thor, flying spaghetti monster........I'd say thank you.
    Because among those terms are antitheticals.

    The predicate happy or merry to the subject good and not-good is formally meaningless nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHunter View Post
    This is just another way for this administration to deny and denigrate our religious background.
    Yes because the christian majority in this country is being oppressed and targeted by the government, elected or appointed, who are comprised mostly of christians. Oh the travesty! Persecution! Lion's den! poor widdle you!

    Back to the topic OP post; GOOD! Get rid of all that religious crap. Friggen tax payer money, a tax payer healthcare system, for tax payer paid buildings and staff, treating people who was paid by the tax payers, and now get everything covered by the tax payer when they go there to get tax payer funded medical care. It's a government building, with government staff and employees; Religion has no place in tax payer-funded buildings, and such. But, on the side of caution, if they don't encompass the winter decorations of EVERY. SINGLE. RELIGION. EVER. EXISTED. then NO decorations should be put up. It's like the Oklahoma court house thing, either they allow people to erect monuments and plaques from EVERY RELIGION, or they can't have ANY religious monuments/plaques up at all. I'm an Anti-theist [Someone who vehemently hates religion, and is an atheist to the extremes], I don't want a single darn penny of my tax dollars going to pay for any christian [or for that matter, jewish, muslim, bhuddist, taoist, etc] decorations, nor for said decorations to be put on display on any part of my tax dollar-funded buildings/lands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    [bigoted sarcasm redacted]

    Back to the topic OP post; GOOD! Get rid of all that religious crap. Friggen tax payer money, a tax payer healthcare system, for tax payer paid buildings and staff, treating people who was paid by the tax payers, and now get everything covered by the tax payer when they go there to get tax payer funded medical care.
    ...

    [redact small minded, hateful, spiteful, bigotry]

    ...

    I don't want a single darn penny of my tax dollars going to pay for any christian [or for that matter, jewish, muslim, bhuddist, taoist, etc] decorations, nor for said decorations to be put on display on any part of my tax dollar-funded buildings/lands.
    And some have the audacity to claim it is Christians who are hateful? It is really sad to see anyone consumed by such hatred.

    But to the topic at hand...

    A couple of small points about all this "taxpayer" funded concerns.

    1-This is the VA, providing treatment to veterans who EARNED medical care with their military service. (Actually, I think they earned far better than the VA is actually providing, but that is another thread.) This isn't some kind of taxpayer provided welfare/charity. It is an earned benefit.

    2-Most competent medical providers and public health organizations now recognize that attending to a patient's spiritual needs is an important part of their overall medical (physical or mental) care. Put something like "importance of meeting spiritual needs as part of medical care" into your favorite internet search engine for a long list of articles from diverse sources.

    3-Whether showing up for an outpatient test/procedure, or spending significant time, a hospital is not a pleasant place to be in most cases. Some changing in scenery with season-appropriate decorations is a very low cost way to help improve patient moral. Veterans' Day/Thanksgiving, Christmas/Chanukah/New Year's, Easter/Passover, Independence Day, and State/region specific holidays (ie Patriots' Day in April in New England, Founders' Day in Nevada, etc) are fine times to make small changes in décor/decorations and conveniently correspond with Fall, Winter, Spring, and Summer. Whatever the history, each now has significant secular components in addition to religious specific observances. Notably, in addition to the purely secular holidays such as Veterans' and Memorial Day, Thanksgiving and Christmas are both official federal holidays and so would seem to me to be entirely appropriate to recognize in federal facilities.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 11-23-2015 at 02:13 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Yes because the christian majority in this country is being oppressed and targeted by the government, elected or appointed, who are comprised mostly of christians. Oh the travesty! Persecution! Lion's den! poor widdle you!

    Back to the topic OP post; GOOD! Get rid of all that religious crap. Friggen tax payer money, a tax payer healthcare system, for tax payer paid buildings and staff, treating people who was paid by the tax payers, and now get everything covered by the tax payer when they go there to get tax payer funded medical care. It's a government building, with government staff and employees; Religion has no place in tax payer-funded buildings, and such. But, on the side of caution, if they don't encompass the winter decorations of EVERY. SINGLE. RELIGION. EVER. EXISTED. then NO decorations should be put up. It's like the Oklahoma court house thing, either they allow people to erect monuments and plaques from EVERY RELIGION, or they can't have ANY religious monuments/plaques up at all.
    That's an incredible amount of hatred you packed in there, Drake. What's the source for all your hatred?

    Couple of points:

    1. While the term "Christmas" literally means "Christ's Mass" i.e. the birth of Christ, it has become synonymous with the winter holiday season. I've known many Jewish people who routinely wished me a "Merry Christmas," including one of my best friends in high school, as well as a lady who attends my writer's group. The only two groups who routinely find it offensive are Islamic radicals and atheists. Given the association, this fact doesn't paint either group in a very appealing, much less rational light.

    2. Jefferson's "Separation of church and state" letter to the Danbury Baptists in no way promised or even hinted that it would keep religion out of the government. When you read his letter en toto, his "wall of separation between Church and State" clearly indicates protecting the Church from the State, and not the other way around. In fact, this sentiment was abundantly and repeatedly echoed by many of the other Founding Fathers who unmistakably considering attempting to run the U.S. Government without a firm grounding in Christian and/or Biblical principles to be an exercise of high folly. John Adams wrote, "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." (Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Washington D. C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIII, p. 292-294. In a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813.). With this in mind, Jefferson himself routinely opened up the old Treasury buildings to churchgoers during his Presidency in response to the rapid increase in the D.C. population that outpaced the building industry's ability to erect houses of Christian worship. Jefferson's letter most certainly did, however, reaffirm the First Amendment's prohibition that Congress "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Even more revealing, however, is the letter written by the Danbury Baptists to Thomas Jefferson, along with Jefferson's final word. The Danbury Baptist letter concerned itself with federal meddling in the affairs of churches. Jefferson's response (in full, below), includes the following: "Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." In short, this means, "I agree with your position, respect it, and assure you a federal encroachment on religious belief will not happen." We must never forget the second part of our First Amendment's protection of religion: "nor prohibit the free exercise thereof." This isn't merely federal law. Amendments are part of the Constitution (Article V), "the supreme Law of the Land" (Article VI). As such, they "shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution" (Article V). Any subsequent federal law, including the directions given by Department of VA staffers, must fall in line with the mandate that "Congress shall make no law ... prohibiting the free exercise (of religion)." If it does not, then the directives given by such directors and staffers directly violates the Constitutional rights of its employees.

    As utbagpiper correctly noted, not only are the taxpayer dollars spent on the VA very well-earned by those who risked all for their country, but meeting the spiritual needs of patients is critical to their overall care.

    I'm an Anti-theist [Someone who vehemently hates religion, and is an atheist to the extremes], I don't want a single darn penny of my tax dollars going to pay for any christian [or for that matter, jewish, muslim, bhuddist, taoist, etc] decorations, nor for said decorations to be put on display on any part of my tax dollar-funded buildings/lands.
    To cop a quote: "Oh the travesty! Persecution! Lion's den! poor widdle you!"

    Seriously, Drake, We the People do not agree with you: "A 2008 survey of 1,000 people concluded that, based on their stated beliefs rather than their religious identification, 69.5% of Americans believe in a personal God, roughly 12.3% of Americans are atheist or agnostic, and another 12.1% are deistic (believing in a higher power/non-personal God, but no personal God)." Furthermore, "Most of the 50 affiliations cited are Christian denominations, ranging from the Assembly of God to the United Church of Christ. Added up they show that 53 percent of Americans are Protestants, 22 percent Catholics and 8 percent other Christians, such as Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. Protestant Groups."

    That's 83% of Americans who are Christians.

    Our country is a Republic, not a Democracy. If we attempted to appease every minority, we'd have to flip coins to chose which minority ruled, as many of them are on conflict with one another. Freedom of religion remains one of the most valuable foundations of our country.

    If you don't like it, I suggest that instead of trying to shove your 1% view, "an atheist to the extremes," down everyone else's throats, you wake up, realize we were founded as a Christian nation, remain a predominantly Christian nation, and you either chose to live here peaceably or move to either the Czech Republic or Estonia:

    "According to Pew Research Center survey in 2012 religiously unaffiliated (include agnostic and atheist) make up about 18.2% of Europeans population. According to the same survey religiously unaffiliated make up a majority of the population only in two European countries: Czech Republic (75%) and Estonia (60%)." Other sources indicate China and Japan outpace the Czech Republic.

    You'll be much happier there than amongst all us Christians.
    Last edited by since9; 11-23-2015 at 03:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    That's an incredible amount of hatred you packed in there, Drake. What's the source for all your hatred?

    Couple of points:

    1. While the term "Christmas" literally means "Christ's Mass" i.e. the birth of Christ, it has become synonymous with the winter holiday season. I've known many Jewish people who routinely wished me a "Merry Christmas," including one of my best friends in high school, as well as a lady who attends my writer's group. The only two groups who routinely find it offensive are Islamic radicals and atheists. Given the association, this fact doesn't paint either group in a very appealing, much less rational light.

    2. Jefferson's "Separation of church and state" letter to the Danbury Baptists in no way promised or even hinted that it would keep religion out of the government. When you read his letter en toto, his "wall of separation between Church and State" clearly indicates protecting the Church from the State, and not the other way around. In fact, this sentiment was abundantly and repeatedly echoed by many of the other Founding Fathers who unmistakably considering attempting to run the U.S. Government without a firm grounding in Christian and/or Biblical principles to be an exercise of high folly. John Adams wrote, "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." (Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Washington D. C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIII, p. 292-294. In a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813.). With this in mind, Jefferson himself routinely opened up the old Treasury buildings to churchgoers during his Presidency in response to the rapid increase in the D.C. population that outpaced the building industry's ability to erect houses of Christian worship. Jefferson's letter most certainly did, however, reaffirm the First Amendment's prohibition that Congress "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Even more revealing, however, is the letter written by the Danbury Baptists to Thomas Jefferson, along with Jefferson's final word. The Danbury Baptist letter concerned itself with federal meddling in the affairs of churches. Jefferson's response (in full, below), includes the following: "Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." In short, this means, "I agree with your position, respect it, and assure you a federal encroachment on religious belief will not happen." We must never forget the second part of our First Amendment's protection of religion: "nor prohibit the free exercise thereof." This isn't merely federal law. Amendments are part of the Constitution (Article V), "the supreme Law of the Land" (Article VI). As such, they "shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution" (Article V). Any subsequent federal law, including the directions given by Department of VA staffers, must fall in line with the mandate that "Congress shall make no law ... prohibiting the free exercise (of religion)." If it does not, then the directives given by such directors and staffers directly violates the Constitutional rights of its employees.

    As utbagpiper correctly noted, not only are the taxpayer dollars spent on the VA very well-earned by those who risked all for their country, but meeting the spiritual needs of patients is critical to their overall care.



    To cop a quote: "Oh the travesty! Persecution! Lion's den! poor widdle you!"

    Seriously, Drake, We the People do not agree with you: "A 2008 survey of 1,000 people concluded that, based on their stated beliefs rather than their religious identification, 69.5% of Americans believe in a personal God, roughly 12.3% of Americans are atheist or agnostic, and another 12.1% are deistic (believing in a higher power/non-personal God, but no personal God)." Furthermore, "Most of the 50 affiliations cited are Christian denominations, ranging from the Assembly of God to the United Church of Christ. Added up they show that 53 percent of Americans are Protestants, 22 percent Catholics and 8 percent other Christians, such as Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. Protestant Groups."

    That's 83% of Americans who are Christians.

    Our country is a Republic, not a Democracy. If we attempted to appease every minority, we'd have to flip coins to chose which minority ruled, as many of them are on conflict with one another. Freedom of religion remains one of the most valuable foundations of our country.

    If you don't like it, I suggest that instead of trying to shove your 1% view, "an atheist to the extremes," down everyone else's throats, you wake up, realize we were founded as a Christian nation, remain a predominantly Christian nation, and you either chose to live here peaceably or move to either the Czech Republic or Estonia:

    "According to Pew Research Center survey in 2012 religiously unaffiliated (include agnostic and atheist) make up about 18.2% of Europeans population. According to the same survey religiously unaffiliated make up a majority of the population only in two European countries: Czech Republic (75%) and Estonia (60%)." Other sources indicate China and Japan outpace the Czech Republic.

    You'll be much happier there than amongst all us Christians.
    Sorry man. You are talking to a wall. When someone says that they don't mind one religion(Muslims) targeting and killing Christians, it's a lost cause.

    For someone that is In a minority, it's pretty sad to see that individual throwing all Christians into some tiny microcosm of religious folks that have done him wrong. I'm religious, and I don't have anything against him. Not would I care to push my beliefs on others against their will. But hey, I guess I don't matter because of my own beliefs. Go figure.

    By the way, fantastic expose on how separation of church in state really started.


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  24. #24
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Have yall ever read/seen the Jefferson 'bible' - Smithsonian (a federal taxpayer funded establishment Drake) recently restored it and has copies for sale. Jefferson has the new testament where he cut out all of the non-facts that he thought had crept in to the story of Jesus over time. He laid it out in greek, latin, english and french. TJ was an interesting dude.

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-c...bible-5659505/


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  25. #25
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    That's an incredible amount of hatred you packed in there, Drake. What's the source for all your hatred?
    *Snipped*
    Why thank you since9! The source, is life experiences. You grow up, live, breath, work, and learn, around incredible sources of unfound hate based on someone's sexuality, and being the target of all that hate from time to time, and it makes you filled with hurt, and hate, for those that brought hurt and hate to you. I do pride myself on my quenching ability to hold such disdain and hate for Religion, and it's spawn, so I appreciate your compliment!
    I'm a proud openly gay open carrier~
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