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Thread: Yeah... That's called OPEN Carry, not CC

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Yeah... That's called OPEN Carry, not CC

    Excerpt: "In an exclusive statement to Breitbart, Trump addressed the 13 million Americans who held concealed carry permits, they have an obligation to carry “but we must do it in such a way as to raise serious doubts in the minds of those who might be considering violence in America."

    When you carry concealed, you raise NO doubts whatsoever because no one knows you're carrying.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    But, but, but....SURPRISE!!!!!!!





    or




    I can't decide which.
    Last edited by FTG-05; 11-26-2015 at 11:55 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTG-05 View Post
    But, but, but....SURPRISE!!!!!!!





    or




    I can't decide which.
    We need a mall ninja smiley.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    We need a mall ninja smiley.
    If they were called pictographs or petroglyphs, would their disadvantages be clearer?

    The author Stephen King identified the risk ten years ago and more.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    We need a mall ninja smiley.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Trump is no friend to our RKBA ... who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Trump is no friend to our RKBA ... who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.
    Please advise when you find someone better AND who is truly electable.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTG-05 View Post
    But, but, but....SURPRISE!!!!!!!





    or




    I can't decide which.
    Definitely the latter, as my point is that OC is the only way to raise any doubts. CC in and of itself has never deterred crime. Having said that, a city chock full of CC folks who actually employ it on a regular basis usually finds itself losing criminals, if not by bus or other form of conveyance, then at least by attrition.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Please advise when you find someone better AND who is truly electable.
    This is why evil will continue....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Please advise when you find someone better AND who is truly electable.
    The only ones electable are the ones promising to give away the property of others.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Please advise when you find someone better AND who is truly electable.
    Vote Libertarian. Its easy, go ahead, do it. Its not hard or scary. What you scared of?

    Our RKBA is not tied to anyone or political party...but Libertarians know that all guns laws are void.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    This is why evil will continue....
    Sometimes we must choose between the lesser of two weevils.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    When you carry concealed, you raise NO doubts whatsoever because no one knows you're carrying.
    At the individual level, that is certainly true. But at the macro level? Lott's work offers evidence to support the thesis that as the number of persons carrying (generally looking at CC, I believe), violent crime rates decline. The economic theory is that as the risk of facing an armed victim rises, the cost of engaging in violent crime increases, and this decreases the "demand" for such activities.

    Looking at this, we might go so far as to suggest that OC is better for the individual gun carrier as criminals are likely to move on to a softer target and the LAC who is OCing is less likely to ever need to draw her gun. On the flip side, widespread CC may be better in reducing crime rates overall as criminals cannot determine which potential victims to avoid and so must weigh whether to engage in the violent crime at all or whether to find less confrontational methods (ie smash and grabs, ID theft, etc) to obtain ill-gotten gains.

    This is, of course, ignoring the benefits to the RKBA community (and thus ultimately to the nation) from the educational and social normalizing that takes place through OCing but doesn't (to nearly the same degree) when CCing.

    It is also assuming that we are unlikely to ever achieve anywhere close to 100% of adults carrying guns. As we look at States with a long history of shall issue permits and laws that still favor obtaining a permit rather than carrying sans permit, we can get an idea for how many adults will obtain a permit. Utah currently has slightly over 10% of our adults (21 years+) holding Utah permits, with more Utah permits issued to non-Utah-residents than to residents. According to this political fact checking site (checking on a claim by Jeb Bush) Florida and Connecticut have a total number of valid permits equal to about 6% of their total population. With 20% of the population under 18 years, and a lot of permits issued to non-residents, we might figure about 5% of adults have permits in Florida. According to this news report out of Florida in April 2014, "5 percent of people in that [Miama-Dade county have] permits ... [while in] Nassau County, ... 13 percent of adults hold concealed weapons permits." (I question whether the station really calculated the difference between total population and adult population in these numbers.)

    In any event, methinks that if everyone who carried OCd, criminals could readily avoid 1 person in 10 or even 1 in 5 who is OCing, choosing to prey upon those who are not armed. However, if most everyone CCd, criminals might find 1 in 10 (or even 1 in 20 or 1 in 100) odds of picking an armed victim to be much too high for a long term career in violent crime. The addict feeding a fairly small habit who is mugging 2 people a week is going to run through 100 victim in a year. If I've got my math right, even if only 1 in 100 persons CCs, he would have a 63% chance of facing an armed "victim" within that year, and an 87% chance of facing an armed victim within two years. If 1 in 10 is CCing, he has a 99% chance of facing an armed victim within the first 50 confrontations.

    Just some food for thought and maybe discussion.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Vote Libertarian. Its easy, go ahead, do it. Its not hard or scary. What you scared of?

    Our RKBA is not tied to anyone or political party...but Libertarians know that all guns laws are void.
    Bernie or Hillary voting Libertarian could help one or the other get elected.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Please advise when you find someone better AND who is truly electable.
    I think Cruz is truly electable as evidenced by his current seat in the Senate, elected from a rather populous State. Doesn't guarantee he can win the presidency. But suggests he knows how to run a credible campaign. And depending on which poll (or aggregate of polls) you want to look at, he is running somewhere between 2nd and 4th behind Trump and with Carson and Rubio, all four of whom are leading Jeb Bush.

    I think Cruz's positions on RKBA are a little more credible given his record while in office, than are Trump's.

    (I suspect Rand Paul has the very best RKBA positions of any major candidates, and probably on par with the Libertarian or other 3rd party candidates. But I don't think he, or such third parties stand a snowball's chance of winning.)

    Now, that said, barring some almost unimaginable data coming to light, I'd rather see Trump than Hillary or Sanders in the White House; and were I to think for one second that my vote would determine where Utah's electoral votes were to be case, I'd vote for Trump (or maybe even Satan himself) rather than for any of the Democrat candidates this election.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Vote Libertarian. Its easy, go ahead, do it. Its not hard or scary. What you scared of?

    Our RKBA is not tied to anyone or political party...but Libertarians know that all guns laws are void.
    Being in a solidly GOP-safe State, I enjoy the luxury of frequently voting for Libertarian (or Constitution or other third party) candidates for Statewide office and for POTUS. I do this knowing that their odds of winning are effectively zero, but doing my small part to help them maintain ballot status (pretty low bar in Utah) and help send whatever "message" can be sent. I can do this knowing that my vote has zero practical chance of seeing a gun grabbing Democrat (at this time virtually every democrat candidate in Utah is a gun grabber as we have no effective blue collar wing of the Democrat party here) elected over a far less offensive Republican.

    Those in solidly Democrat-safe States (or districts) can do likewise, generally knowing that their votes won't be the difference between a gun grabber or a less-offensive candidate winning the election.

    But for those in swing districts/States, I think it very counter-productive to cast a vote for a third party, or to refuse to vote, simply because there isn't a perfect candidate in the race. W Bush wasn't great and was far from perfect on RKBA. He even made a few comments about signing a reauthorization of the scary looking gun ban if it made it to his desk. But did he actually do anything significant to push congress to reauthorize it? How do we suppose AlGore would have played that same issue had a very small number of voters in Florida (or any one of several other swing States) not voted for Bush?

    More importantly, how would our RKBA have fared had the Democrats not suffered the crushing defeat in the 1994 congressional races following passage of the scary looking gun ban? The Republicans who replaced them were far from perfect on RKBA. But throwing those races to proven, gun-grabbing Democrat incumbents by voting third party or staying home would not have sent nearly the same message as did actually taking the seats from the gun grabbers.

    Sometimes, we vote against a candidate more than we vote for her opponent. Hillary has made clear she intends to attack our RKBA if elected. Trump, Cruz, Carson, and Rubio are generally saying the right things on RKBA (though Carson and Rubio are weaker in their statements and record than Trump or Cruz).

    Even if we cannot bring ourselves to vote forthe eventual GOP nominee, we certainly need to cast the most effective vote possible against the eventual Democrat nominee in the next presidential election.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    But how will parties change their positions unless they lose elections Charles?

    So a 10% Libertarian vote in an election wherein the GOP loses by 3% will get them thinking to change ... especially if they lose again and again and again.

    Politicians are not that stoopid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    But how will parties change their positions unless they lose elections Charles?

    So a 10% Libertarian vote in an election wherein the GOP loses by 3% will get them thinking to change ... especially if they lose again and again and again.

    Politicians are not that stoopid.
    One way is to NOT contribute ANY funds to the various parties but contribute generously to any and all candidates that support those policies important to you! From me the GOP will get not one dime but certain individual candidates do have my support! Ted Cruz is one I am willing to contribute too!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    But how will parties change their positions unless they lose elections Charles?
    --snipped--
    Some change their positions WHEN they win. Jus' sayin'.

    Hopefully, all that glitters is not fools gold.
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    But how will parties change their positions unless they lose elections Charles?

    So a 10% Libertarian vote in an election wherein the GOP loses by 3% will get them thinking to change ... especially if they lose again and again and again.

    Politicians are not that stoopid.
    Worked well hasn't.

    Have Clinton and Obama been worth it.

    Having once been very Libertarian in my voting I don't think so.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    But how will parties change their positions unless they lose elections Charles?

    So a 10% Libertarian vote in an election wherein the GOP loses by 3% will get them thinking to change ... especially if they lose again and again and again.

    Politicians are not that stoopid.
    Nice theory.

    Individuals may change. Parties, less so, it seems. Note how individual congress-critters have reacted to the 1994 congressional elections compared to how little has changed in the Democrat party itself. Their President and presidential candidates continue to assault our RKBA even as a lot of individual Democrat congressmen realize any RKBA attack that can be pinned on them is going to make re-election in their district much more difficult.

    Theories are nice. I'll look for solid examples to back them up. The closest I've ever heard was from libertarians who claimed that when socialist and communists starting taking votes from the Democrats in the early 20th century, the Democrats adopted those ideals into their party to win back voters. I've never seen the citations to back up these claims about socialists winning the margin of victory away from Democrats.

    Nor can the nation well survive too many stints with folks like Obama or Hillary at the helm. Carter was a terrible president, paralyzed by inability to act when a clear course could not be charted or when conflicting values and principles were at play. But I think he was a loyal American who loved his country. He was a decent and good person who wanted to do the right thing. I cannot say likewise of our current president nor either of the leading Democrat challengers. I will vote against such persons. And in Utah, I will most likely have the luxury of voting third party without any real risk of denying electoral votes to the only candidate who might beat the Democrat. Congressionally, I live in the only swing district in my State. I will vote against the candidate who will vote for Pelosi to be Speaker. I will vote for the only candidate who can possibly keep the Democrat nominee for my congressional seat out of office.

    I vote third party when they have the best candidate and when doing so won't hurt me. But I won't let the perfect become the enemy of the good enough when the reins of power are up for grabs and if "good enough" doesn't win, "really, very atrocious Pelosi and Hillary" will.

    If a republican candidate needs to be punished, do it in the primary or convention so you have an acceptable--if imperfect--option in the general. But at the present time, it would take a truly awful republican for me to think that having another 4 years of Democrats in charge of the DoJ, making appointments to the courts, having Pelosi as Speaker or Reid as Senate Majority leader was better.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 12-01-2015 at 08:28 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    One way is to NOT contribute ANY funds to the various parties but contribute generously to any and all candidates that support those policies important to you! From me the GOP will get not one dime but certain individual candidates do have my support! Ted Cruz is one I am willing to contribute too!
    +1
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Please advise when you find someone better AND who is truly electable.
    Ted Cruz comes to mind.

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot
    Please advise when you find someone better AND who is truly electable.
    Quote Originally Posted by wethepeople View Post
    Ted Cruz comes to mind.
    Please reread my post.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Please reread my post.
    Do you not think Cruz is electable? For what reason?
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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