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Thread: Fairfax - permit lapsed - how to answer question

  1. #1
    Newbie W.E.G.'s Avatar
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    Fairfax - permit lapsed - how to answer question

    No, I didn't let mine lapse.

    But, my buddy did.
    His Fairfax permit lapsed several months ago.

    We have been debating how he should answer this question:



    I suggested he should write "Fairfax" and insert the (now-passed) date.
    Theory is it was a validly issued permit which has merely expired.

    I can't believe Fairfax wants to open a whole new file just because a permit is a few-months expired.

    It might be different if he had moved to a different Court's jurisdiction.



    Thoughts on this?


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    Last edited by W.E.G.; 11-24-2015 at 05:41 PM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    If it is expired, then it is no longer valid.
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    The answer is "No." The permit is expired and is valid for nothing related to the question.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Shovelhead's Avatar
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    Mine in Arlington was expired for a month.
    I called the clerk's office and explained.
    I was told to process it as a renewal as I had already gone through all the 'hoops" in the past.
    I received my renewed permit in about 20 days.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    The statute that allows renewal specifies a period of time during which one may apply for renewal, seems to me, off the top of my head, that it's at least thirty and not more than ninety days from the expiration date. When a statute is specific about something, it excludes all other things. "Expressio unius exclusio alterius est." If a clerk's office permitted something different, there's a question (as a technical legal matter) whether the resultant permit is legally valid. If it was not lawfully issued, then it's a nullity. Re-application other than as a renewal is a new application, hence a new file and a new case number. However, if you know the case number of the previous file, then you can get the clerk to fetch that file out for you so you can get a certified copy of whatever document you used to certify "safety OR proficiency".
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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    The statute that allows renewal specifies a period of time during which one may apply for renewal, seems to me, off the top of my head, that it's at least thirty and not more than ninety days from the expiration date. When a statute is specific about something, it excludes all other things. "Expressio unius exclusio alterius est." If a clerk's office permitted something different, there's a question (as a technical legal matter) whether the resultant permit is legally valid. If it was not lawfully issued, then it's a nullity. Re-application other than as a renewal is a new application, hence a new file and a new case number. However, if you know the case number of the previous file, then you can get the clerk to fetch that file out for you so you can get a certified copy of whatever document you used to certify "safety OR proficiency".
    It's actually 90 - 180 days. If one renews within this interval, the new permit is effective the day the old one expires, i.e. no gap, no overlap.

    § 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.
    2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    It's actually 90 - 180 days. If one renews within this interval, the new permit is effective the day the old one expires, i.e. no gap, no overlap.

    § 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.
    2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.
    Minor point: there is actually one day overlap.

    If the old permit expired after 11:59:59 pm and the new permit began the next day at 12:00:00 (midnight) there would then be no overlap.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-26-2015 at 03:17 AM.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I REALLY, REALLY hate to step on toes around here, because there are a lot of very smart toes... but Code is Code.

    For the purposes of renewing a CHP, the status of the prior permit is not a factor, OTHER than the relatively recent addition to the code that provided for a no-overlap, no-gap method to have your new permit issued at the end of your old permit.

    Don't get the two issues confused, they are entirely different.

    The CHP section in the Code of Virginia is quite clear:

    § 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.

    A.1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in § 18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in § 18.2-308.09. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.

    There is no requirement that your current permit be in effect in order to "renew" it. If you have EVER had a Virginia CHP, then your next one is a RENEWAL, not a NEW issue.

    The confusion seems to be coming from the poorly worded, if not outright misleading question "M." on the form. I would suggest that you can truthfully answer question "M." stating that your permit has expired, while ALSO checking the "Renewal" box at the top.

    V/R,

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    It's actually 90 - 180 days. If one renews within this interval, the new permit is effective the day the old one expires, i.e. no gap, no overlap.

    § 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.
    2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.
    Portion labeled as "2" refures to time period in number of days before a permit expires for renewal not for post expiration 90-180 days expired. Don't make any sense at all to make a permit holder 1 day expired to wait at least 90 days to apply for a renewal.
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  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I REALLY, REALLY hate to step on toes around here, because there are a lot of very smart toes... but Code is Code.

    For the purposes of renewing a CHP, the status of the prior permit is not a factor, OTHER than the relatively recent addition to the code that provided for a no-overlap, no-gap method to have your new permit issued at the end of your old permit.

    Don't get the two issues confused, they are entirely different.

    The CHP section in the Code of Virginia is quite clear:
    § 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.

    A.1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in § 18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in § 18.2-308.09. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.

    There is no requirement that your current permit be in effect in order to "renew" it. If you have EVER had a Virginia CHP, then your next one is a RENEWAL, not a NEW issue.

    The confusion seems to be coming from the poorly worded, if not outright misleading question "M." on the form. I would suggest that you can truthfully answer question "M." stating that your permit has expired, while ALSO checking the "Renewal" box at the top.

    V/R,

    TFred

    You are correct in the analysis about renewal, but the application form question the OP asked about doesn't ask that. IT asks if you currently have a valid permit.

    Now, this is interesting to me, as spouse is about to submit his, and is in the same boat.
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  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    You are correct in the analysis about renewal, but the application form question the OP asked about doesn't ask that. IT asks if you currently have a valid permit.

    Now, this is interesting to me, as spouse is about to submit his, and is in the same boat.
    I would write the word "Expired" in that space and include a photocopy* of said permit.

    *That also satisfies the proof of training requirement that has been a toe stumper in some cases.
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  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Expressio unius alterius exclusio est. When a statute specifies a method for renewal, that specification excludes all other concepts of renewal as a matter of statutory construction. There is no such thing as "renewal" except as provided by that statute.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    The statute that allows renewal specifies a period of time during which one may apply for renewal, seems to me, off the top of my head, that it's at least thirty and not more than ninety days from the expiration date. When a statute is specific about something, it excludes all other things. "Expressio unius exclusio alterius est." If a clerk's office permitted something different, there's a question (as a technical legal matter) whether the resultant permit is legally valid. If it was not lawfully issued, then it's a nullity. Re-application other than as a renewal is a new application, hence a new file and a new case number. However, if you know the case number of the previous file, then you can get the clerk to fetch that file out for you so you can get a certified copy of whatever document you used to certify "safety OR proficiency".
    It shouldn't matter how safety and proficiency was originally proven. Any time you renew all that matters is that you've previously obtained a permit provided it hasn't been "revoked for cause" unless expired counts as "revoked form cause".

    I've never had official firearms training. I got my first permit when shall issue became law. After that my renewals have been based on having a previously issued permit even after proof of competency was added before my first renewal.

    18.2-308.02. Application for a concealed handgun permit; Virginia resident or domiciliary.

    B. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

    6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;
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