Fairfax - permit lapsed - how to answer question

No, I didn't let mine lapse.

But, my buddy did.
His Fairfax permit lapsed several months ago.

We have been debating how he should answer this question:



I suggested he should write "Fairfax" and insert the (now-passed) date.
Theory is it was a validly issued permit which has merely expired.

I can't believe Fairfax wants to open a whole new file just because a permit is a few-months expired.

It might be different if he had moved to a different Court's jurisdiction.



Thoughts on this?


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If it is expired, then it is no longer valid.

The answer is "No." The permit is expired and is valid for nothing related to the question.

Mine in Arlington was expired for a month.
I called the clerk's office and explained.
I was told to process it as a renewal as I had already gone through all the 'hoops" in the past.
I received my renewed permit in about 20 days.

I never hurts to call and ask.

The statute that allows renewal specifies a period of time during which one may apply for renewal, seems to me, off the top of my head, that it's at least thirty and not more than ninety days from the expiration date. When a statute is specific about something, it excludes all other things. "Expressio unius exclusio alterius est." If a clerk's office permitted something different, there's a question (as a technical legal matter) whether the resultant permit is legally valid. If it was not lawfully issued, then it's a nullity. Re-application other than as a renewal is a new application, hence a new file and a new case number. However, if you know the case number of the previous file, then you can get the clerk to fetch that file out for you so you can get a certified copy of whatever document you used to certify "safety OR proficiency".

user said:

The statute that allows renewal specifies a period of time during which one may apply for renewal, seems to me, off the top of my head, that it's at least thirty and not more than ninety days from the expiration date. When a statute is specific about something, it excludes all other things. "Expressio unius exclusio alterius est." If a clerk's office permitted something different, there's a question (as a technical legal matter) whether the resultant permit is legally valid. If it was not lawfully issued, then it's a nullity. Re-application other than as a renewal is a new application, hence a new file and a new case number. However, if you know the case number of the previous file, then you can get the clerk to fetch that file out for you so you can get a certified copy of whatever document you used to certify "safety OR proficiency".

Click to expand...

It's actually 90 - 180 days. If one renews within this interval, the new permit is effective the day the old one expires, i.e. no gap, no overlap.

§ 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.
2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.

2a4all said:

It's actually 90 - 180 days. If one renews within this interval, the new permit is effective the day the old one expires, i.e. no gap, no overlap.

§ 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.
2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.

Click to expand...

Minor point: there is actually one day overlap.

If the old permit expired after 11:59:59 pm and the new permit began the next day at 12:00:00 (midnight) there would then be no overlap.

I REALLY, REALLY hate to step on toes around here, because there are a lot of very smart toes... but Code is Code.

For the purposes of renewing a CHP, the status of the prior permit is not a factor, OTHER than the relatively recent addition to the code that provided for a no-overlap, no-gap method to have your new permit issued at the end of your old permit.

Don't get the two issues confused, they are entirely different.

The CHP section in the Code of Virginia is quite clear:


There is no requirement that your current permit be in effect in order to "renew" it. If you have EVER had a Virginia CHP, then your next one is a RENEWAL, not a NEW issue.

The confusion seems to be coming from the poorly worded, if not outright misleading question "M." on the form. I would suggest that you can truthfully answer question "M." stating that your permit has expired, while ALSO checking the "Renewal" box at the top.

V/R,

TFred

2a4all said:

It's actually 90 - 180 days. If one renews within this interval, the new permit is effective the day the old one expires, i.e. no gap, no overlap.

§ 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.
2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.

Click to expand...

Portion labeled as "2" refures to time period in number of days before a permit expires for renewal not for post expiration 90-180 days expired. Don't make any sense at all to make a permit holder 1 day expired to wait at least 90 days to apply for a renewal.

TFred said:

I REALLY, REALLY hate to step on toes around here, because there are a lot of very smart toes... but Code is Code.

For the purposes of renewing a CHP, the status of the prior permit is not a factor, OTHER than the relatively recent addition to the code that provided for a no-overlap, no-gap method to have your new permit issued at the end of your old permit.

Don't get the two issues confused, they are entirely different.

The CHP section in the Code of Virginia is quite clear:

§ 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.

A.1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in § 18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in § 18.2-308.09. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.​

There is no requirement that your current permit be in effect in order to "renew" it. If you have EVER had a Virginia CHP, then your next one is a RENEWAL, not a NEW issue.

The confusion seems to be coming from the poorly worded, if not outright misleading question "M." on the form. I would suggest that you can truthfully answer question "M." stating that your permit has expired, while ALSO checking the "Renewal" box at the top.

V/R,

TFred

Click to expand...

You are correct in the analysis about renewal, but the application form question the OP asked about doesn't ask that. IT asks if you currently have a valid permit.

Now, this is interesting to me, as spouse is about to submit his, and is in the same boat.

Tess said:

You are correct in the analysis about renewal, but the application form question the OP asked about doesn't ask that. IT asks if you currently have a valid permit.

Now, this is interesting to me, as spouse is about to submit his, and is in the same boat.

Click to expand...

I would write the word "Expired" in that space and include a photocopy* of said permit.

*That also satisfies the proof of training requirement that has been a toe stumper in some cases.

Expressio unius alterius exclusio est. When a statute specifies a method for renewal, that specification excludes all other concepts of renewal as a matter of statutory construction. There is no such thing as "renewal" except as provided by that statute.

user said:

The statute that allows renewal specifies a period of time during which one may apply for renewal, seems to me, off the top of my head, that it's at least thirty and not more than ninety days from the expiration date. When a statute is specific about something, it excludes all other things. "Expressio unius exclusio alterius est." If a clerk's office permitted something different, there's a question (as a technical legal matter) whether the resultant permit is legally valid. If it was not lawfully issued, then it's a nullity. Re-application other than as a renewal is a new application, hence a new file and a new case number. However, if you know the case number of the previous file, then you can get the clerk to fetch that file out for you so you can get a certified copy of whatever document you used to certify "safety OR proficiency".

Click to expand...

It shouldn't matter how safety and proficiency was originally proven. Any time you renew all that matters is that you've previously obtained a permit provided it hasn't been "revoked for cause" unless expired counts as "revoked form cause".

I've never had official firearms training. I got my first permit when shall issue became law. After that my renewals have been based on having a previously issued permit even after proof of competency was added before my first renewal.

18.2-308.02. Application for a concealed handgun permit; Virginia resident or domiciliary.

B. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;