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  1. #1
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Legal Question

    Hi guys-

    Hoping someone in here can help me out with this question:

    In the state of Florida, if you are pulled over in a traffic stop, and the officer asks the generic question "do you have any weapons in the car", are you required by law to answer that question in the affirmative? Or, do your 5th amendment rights exist at this point?

    There can be 2 different times when he asks this question:

    First, immediately when he walks up to you.
    Second, after you hand him your driver's license and CWFL.

    I'd like answers to both scenarios.

    Thanks!

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    FLORIDA STATUTES CHAPTER 790 WEAPONS AND FIREARMS, search it yourself

    http://flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2013/Chapter790/All

    Use your browser search function with what ever argument you think appropriate. Searching for " inform ", I got no affirmative hits.

    The assertion of non-existence, as of NO requirement to inform, cannot be sustained except by examination of the entire universe of discussion, here Florida statutes, regulations, rules, procedures, and likely of all the counties.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    http://flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2013/Chapter790/All

    Use your browser search function with what ever argument you think appropriate. Searching for " inform ", I got no affirmative hits.

    The assertion of non-existence, as of NO requirement to inform, cannot be sustained except by examination of the entire universe of discussion, here Florida statutes, regulations, rules, procedures, and likely of all the counties.
    Thanks bud. I appreciate the assumption I'm retarded.

    But I chose to ask the question here so I could start a discussion on it.

    It was asserted in another forum that you are legally required to inform the officer you have a weapon in your vehicle, based upon the statute regarding producing your CWFL upon demand. Those are 2 different concepts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    Hi guys-

    Hoping someone in here can help me out with this question:

    In the state of Florida, if you are pulled over in a traffic stop, and the officer asks the generic question "do you have any weapons in the car", are you required by law to answer that question in the affirmative? Or, do your 5th amendment rights exist at this point?

    There can be 2 different times when he asks this question:

    First, immediately when he walks up to you.
    Second, after you hand him your driver's license and CWFL.

    I'd like answers to both scenarios.

    Thanks!
    Might try answering the question with the question, " Why do you ask?" for starters.

    Also might well depend on how much time you want to invest in a traffic stop.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    Thanks bud. I appreciate the assumption I'm retarded. But I chose to ask the question here so I could start a discussion on it. It was asserted in another forum that you are legally required to inform the officer you have a weapon in your vehicle, based upon the statute regarding producing your CWFL upon demand. Those are 2 different concepts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Might try answering the question with the question, " Why do you ask?" for starters. Also might well depend on how much time you want to invest in a traffic stop.
    Is there a statute requiring production of a CWFL on demand or not? If so, please cite it (Rule 5). I cited and linked to Chapter 790, and searched it for the term inform and saw no requirement there at Chapter 790.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    Thanks bud. I appreciate the assumption I'm retarded.

    But I chose to ask the question here so I could start a discussion on it.

    It was asserted in another forum that you are legally required to inform the officer you have a weapon in your vehicle, based upon the statute regarding producing your CWFL upon demand. Those are 2 different concepts.
    grape, apparently your 'why do you ask' concept reveals there is /was an apparent oneupmanship agenda afoot...

    ya know hammer, your query might have been better received if you had been forthcoming and provided your hidden agenda upfront along with your query.

    further hammer, if you would assist your cause if you would provide the statute that was discussed in the "OTHER FORUM" for a starting point for those who might at this point in time actually care.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 11-27-2015 at 01:23 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    "The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court."
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...s/0790.06.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    A few questions:

    What are the rules regarding loaded/unloaded car gun carry in FL?

    Does the OP possess a Florida concealed carry license/permit?

    Did the OP sign a statement indicating knowledge of Florida's concealed carry laws when he submitted his application for said license/permit?

    Questions, questions.
    Last edited by BB62; 11-27-2015 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Added the word "car" to first question

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    Here's a monkey wrench: what if you cannot possess a firearm under state law? Then would you/ could you be required to inform? I think 5th amendment kicks in there.

    Assuming the LEO "demands" a response and the law requires an acknowledgement if held ... perhaps because the guy is not a "permission slip" guy then that provision would not apply too.


    A civil $25 fine ... who would bother with even paying?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    Hi guys-

    Hoping someone in here can help me out with this question:

    In the state of Florida, if you are pulled over in a traffic stop, and the officer asks the generic question "do you have any weapons in the car", are you required by law to answer that question in the affirmative? Or, do your 5th amendment rights exist at this point?

    There can be 2 different times when he asks this question:

    First, immediately when he walks up to you.
    Second, after you hand him your driver's license and CWFL.

    I'd like answers to both scenarios.

    Thanks!
    One is NEVER required to respond to inquires from LEO regarding the presence, absence or location of a firearm.
    In the vast majority of situations, one may also lie in response to such a question. The only exceptions would apply to material facts surrounding a felony criminal investigation or a missing persons case - I can't even imagine why anyone would be talking to a LEO in those circumstances without an attorney present anyway.
    Also it's unlawful to lie to a federal LEO.

    The only notification requirement we have is the requirement to display one's CWFL upon demand of a LEO, after being lawfully detained. Failure/refusal to do so is not criminal in nature, rather a $25 administrative fine. By demand, I mean the LEO demand to see one's CWFL - "Do you have a CWFL?" does not count. He has to ask for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    A few questions:

    What are the rules regarding loaded/unloaded car gun carry in FL?
    Florida generally does not distinguish between loaded/unloaded.
    Any person, not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law may 'carry' a Securely Encased & concealed firearm in one's car with out need of a CWFL.

    Does the OP possess a Florida concealed carry license/permit?
    Irrelevant.

    Did the OP sign a statement indicating knowledge of Florida's concealed carry laws when he submitted his application for said license/permit?
    Irrelevant, but, Yes. It's on the application for a CWFL.


    Questions, questions.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-28-2015 at 07:35 AM. Reason: rule #19

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    One is NEVER required to respond to inquires from LEO regarding the presence, absence or location of a firearm.
    In the vast majority of situations, one may also lie in response to such a question. The only exceptions would apply to material facts surrounding a felony criminal investigation or a missing persons case - I can't even imagine why anyone would be talking to a LEO in those circumstances without an attorney present anyway.
    Also it's unlawful to lie to a federal LEO.

    The only notification requirement we have is the requirement to display one's CWFL upon demand of a LEO, after being lawfully detained. Failure/refusal to do so is not criminal in nature, rather a $25 administrative fine. By demand, I mean the LEO demand to see one's CWFL - "Do you have a CWFL?" does not count. He has to ask for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    A few questions:

    What are the rules regarding loaded/unloaded car gun carry in FL?
    Florida generally does not distinguish between loaded/unloaded.
    Any person, not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law may 'carry' a Securely Encased & concealed firearm in one's car with out need of a CWFL.

    Does the OP possess a Florida concealed carry license/permit?
    Irrelevant.

    Did the OP sign a statement indicating knowledge of Florida's concealed carry laws when he submitted his application for said license/permit?
    Irrelevant, but, Yes. It's on the application for a CWFL.


    Questions, questions.
    The final two questions are absolutely relevant, and the allegedly unaware poster, along with your response, are too cute, by half.

    I'll just leave it at this for the lurkers and those new to open and/or concealed carry: lying to a law enforcement officer, whether against the law or not, is a fool's game.

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    Fifth Amendment silence is not a lie, or obstruction or disorderly.
    My name is John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt, of Waldo, Florida. I claim my Fifth Amendment right to silence, and will answer no questions but on advice of counsel.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    notalawyer could you embellish your response to BB62 a bit further and explain:

    Florida generally does not distinguish between loaded/unloaded.

    not sure i understand your use of 'generally' in reference to FL statutes as it concerns loaded or unloaded.

    could you quantify this a bit so someone could discern when the 'generally' applys and when it doesn't while carrying a handgun ~ we are talking handgun here right notalawyer?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    notalawyer could you embellish your response to BB62 a bit further and explain:

    Florida generally does not distinguish between loaded/unloaded.

    not sure i understand your use of 'generally' in reference to FL statutes as it concerns loaded or unloaded.

    could you quantify this a bit so someone could discern when the 'generally' applys and when it doesn't while carrying a handgun ~ we are talking handgun here right notalawyer?

    ipse
    I said 'generally', to avoid getting into an in-depth discussion of the very limited situations where it becomes relevant. In the OP's case, it not, hence 'generally'.

    I'm still not going to cite every situation where the difference matters, but I'll summarize it off the top of my head:
    Carrying an unloaded firearm home from the place of purchase is legal, 'openly' or concealed, if it is in a 'secure wrapper'.
    There's another one about 'unloaded' storage around minors.
    And if memory serves one regarding enhanced penalties for committing a crime with a firearm 'loaded' with a large capacity magazine >20 rounds and maybe one more..but they generally don't apply in our day-to-day lives of 'carrying'.
    Also there is no definition of loaded or unloaded in the statutes.

    As for BB62's post...whether he thinks it a good idea or not, the law is quite clear:

    In Florida, one is NEVER required to respond to inquires from LEO regarding the presence, absence or location of a firearm.
    In the vast majority of situations, one may also lie in response to such a question. The only exceptions would apply to material facts surrounding a felony criminal investigation or a missing persons case - I can't even imagine why anyone would be talking to a LEO in those circumstances without an attorney present anyway.
    Also it's unlawful to lie to a federal LEO.
    Any person, 18 and over, not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law may 'carry' a Securely Encased & concealed firearm in one's car with out need of a CWFL.
    And since a CWFL is not needed, the relevance of his other two questions are indeed moot.



    Oh, and to the OP: Why would you hand your CWFL to a LEO at a traffic stop?
    Last edited by notalawyer; 11-28-2015 at 05:08 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    --snipped--
    Carrying an unloaded firearm home from the place of purchase is legal, 'openly' or concealed, if it is in a 'secure wrapper'.
    Point - me thinks a firearm in a secure wrapper is hardly carrying openly, though there is no law broken by concealing it under that provision either. The devil is in the details.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-28-2015 at 05:08 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Point - me thinks a firearm in a secure wrapper is hardly carrying openly, though there is no law broken by concealing it under that provision either. The devil is in the details.
    One would think....I suppose one could argue that a clear'wrapper' of some kind could be 'secure'...that's I why quoted openly. The statute that contains that wording exempts concealed and open carry without distinction.

    The devil is in the details.
    Tell that to the Florida Legislature...I could go on for pages and pages where they (in many of their iterations) screwed up our firearms laws.

    Is the 'wrapper' 'secured' if it is tied with a string? No definition of 'wrapper' or 'secure'.

    Just one more little example: We have one statutory definition for "Concealed Weapon" and another for "Weapon" with a significant difference: The inclusion or absence of the term knife. Then in the penal statute they use the text like:carries a concealed weapon on or about his or her person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree. So do they mean the term "Concealed Weapon" or a "Weapon" that is concealed?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-28-2015 at 08:29 PM. Reason: Rule #19

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    grape, apparently your 'why do you ask' concept reveals there is /was an apparent oneupmanship agenda afoot...

    ya know hammer, your query might have been better received if you had been forthcoming and provided your hidden agenda upfront along with your query.

    further hammer, if you would assist your cause if you would provide the statute that was discussed in the "OTHER FORUM" for a starting point for those who might at this point in time actually care.

    ipse
    my hidden agenda? i don't have a hidden agenda. i'm asking a question in order to start a discussion. because, that's how information is discovered, ya know, through communicating.

    i hinted at the statute by mentioning producing a license upon demand.

  18. #18
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Is there a statute requiring production of a CWFL on demand or not? If so, please cite it (Rule 5). I cited and linked to Chapter 790, and searched it for the term inform and saw no requirement there at Chapter 790.
    i'm not talking about a CWFL. i'm talking about a firearm. plain and simple.

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