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Thread: Missouri lawmakers propose lifting college gun ban

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    Missouri lawmakers propose lifting college gun ban

    A bill filed by GOP Senator Brian Munzlinger, of Williamstown, also includes a provision that would allow colleges to opt out. They would need to apply with the state Department of Public Safety and staff all building entrances with security guards and weapons detectors.

    The proposed legislation comes amid debate over how to prevent campus gun violence following last month's shooting at Umpqua Community College in Oregon.

    http://www.kshb.com/news/state/misso...an-at-colleges

    Google Real Time coverage
    https://news.google.com/news/rtc?ncl...zxu0v2kIIkgwZM

    SB731 - Removes the current ban on carrying concealed firearms in higher education institutions, but allows institutions to ban concealed firearms under certain conditions

    Current Bill Summary

    SB 731 - Under current law, a concealed carry permit does not allow a person to carry concealed firearms into any higher education institution without the consent of the governing body of the institution or a school official.

    This act removes the prohibition on the carrying of concealed firearms into higher education institutions and instead provides a process for such institutions to apply to the Department of Public Safety for an exemption to the rule that concealed firearms may be carried on their property. If a higher education institution has received an exemption from the Public Safety Department and has posted the premises as being off-limits to concealed firearms as required by this act, then a person with a concealed carry permit is prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm on the property of the institution.

    This act requires the Department of Public Safety to grant an exemption for a higher education institution if the institution can demonstrate the permanent placement of security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices at each entrance to any building on the property, a requirement that security personnel screen each person entering the building for weapons, and a requirement that any weapons found be held by security personnel while the person is in the building. The department is provided authority to make rules for the administration of the exemption and must design any necessary forms.

    MEGHAN LUECKE

    http://www.senate.mo.gov/16info/bts_...illID=22246427
    Last edited by Nightmare; 12-06-2015 at 07:21 AM.
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    wonderful! with one small societal problem..

    colleges are breeding grounds for dissent and rebellion due to feeble minded idiots joining social groups with like intentions.

    as a result this may likely increase on campus shootings where it becomes permitted.

    I guess it would be a good social experiment to find out what will happen though.. will those who carry retain cool heads and intelligence and avoid situations that provoke violent retaliation?

    will they become bullies due to having firepower?

    should be interesting to say the least, and during initial integration I may avoid the particular colleges that do allow it with a wait and see attitude.

    however bravo on getting back something in regards to our rights.

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    good thng that its already legal to carry on college campuses

    2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections*571.101to*571.121, or a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections*571.101to*571.121, or a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises.
    Not a criminal act, correct. The problem is the "may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises". Can't quite get an education if you're denied/removed from the premises. While they couldn't prosecute you, there's nothing keeping them from expelling even a first time "offender" for violation of school policies.

    It's great that you can't be arrested, but under the current law, it's still quite restricted.
    Last edited by STLDaniel; 12-11-2015 at 10:40 PM.

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    Also filed: SB 589

    Simply removes the ban on CCW in higher education institutes (with no exception like the other outlined in the competing bill SB 731)

    http://www.senate.mo.gov/16info/BTS_...illID=22246616

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    --snipped--........as a result this may likely increase on campus shootings where it becomes permitted.......
    Oh please.

    There is already a more than adequate history of legal gun carriers on campus w/o incidents as you portend.

    Where Students Can Carry Guns On College Campuses
    The "campus carry" movement is gaining momentum amongst some state legislatures
    http://www.vocativ.com/usa/guns/wher...lege-campuses/
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Oh please.

    There is already a more than adequate history of legal gun carriers on campus w/o incidents as you portend.

    Where Students Can Carry Guns On College Campuses
    The "campus carry" movement is gaining momentum amongst some state legislatures
    http://www.vocativ.com/usa/guns/wher...lege-campuses/

    as well as those students who judiciously and discreetly carry even tho the law of the land says they shouldn't...

    ipse
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    --snipped--........as a result this may likely increase on campus shootings where it becomes permitted.......
    Oh please.

    There is already a more than adequate history of legal gun carriers on campus w/o incidents as you portend.

    Where Students Can Carry Guns On College Campuses
    The "campus carry" movement is gaining momentum amongst some state legislatures
    http://www.vocativ.com/usa/guns/wher...lege-campuses/
    His hidden agenda is thinning the herd.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    as well as those students who judiciously and discreetly carry even tho the law of the land says they shouldn't...

    ipse
    Think it is more often the top bobble heads' administrative rule , rather than a law, that potentially punishes students who think outside the box.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Think it is more often the top bobble heads' administrative rule , rather than a law, that potentially punishes students who think outside the box.
    valid clarification...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    I have no agenda, I just know college students can be.. to put it bluntly, extremely irresponsible and downright stupid.

    frat parties and the like prove this end.

    i'm sorry, I just look at a campus and don't instantly think "maturity" or "people capable of rational thought"



    also with the actions of the BLM at Mizzou increasing racial tensions, the prospect for increased violence because of it is present.

    some campuses will be fine, but those that are already a powder keg, I think it is like lighting the fuse and saying it won't blow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Oh please.

    There is already a more than adequate history of legal gun carriers on campus w/o incidents as you portend.

    Where Students Can Carry Guns On College Campuses
    The "campus carry" movement is gaining momentum amongst some state legislatures
    http://www.vocativ.com/usa/guns/wher...lege-campuses/
    Did you read something quite different than what I read? It seems to me that Ezek provides commentary on the current state of affairs on MO college campi and just may not be too far off the mark if the Columbia campus is considered...given recent history at MIZZOU.

    MO is late to the dance but we are trying to get into the dance nonetheless. I'll be working the critters of Jeff City as best I can. MO going green, as UT is, would be good...very good.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    I have no agenda, I just know college students can be.. to put it bluntly, extremely irresponsible and downright stupid.

    frat parties and the like prove this end.

    i'm sorry, I just look at a campus and don't instantly think "maturity" or "people capable of rational thought"



    also with the actions of the BLM at Mizzou increasing racial tensions, the prospect for increased violence because of it is present.

    some campuses will be fine, but those that are already a powder keg, I think it is like lighting the fuse and saying it won't blow.
    (almost) +1

    What, exactly, is there currently for one of the less responsible or unstable types from currently bringing a weapon of choice and causing all sorts of havoc?

    About all that is accomplished by worrying about that possible deeds of the unstable does is marginalize the responsible/stable types and makes them less likely to have an effective means of defense at their disposal. Either those in college are already "adults" or they are not. If so, this is just prior restraint, nothing more.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Did you read something quite different than what I read? It seems to me that Ezek provides commentary on the current state of affairs on MO college campi and just may not be too far off the mark if the Columbia campus is considered...given recent history at MIZZOU.

    MO is late to the dance but we are trying to get into the dance nonetheless. I'll be working the critters of Jeff City as best I can. MO going green, as UT is, would be good...very good.
    +1

    I agree...and OC aside...seems like a rational being has to decide if attending one of these "institutions" is actually a good idea, or if another (or none) might be a better idea for their safety, sanity and ultimately for their wallet.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    I have no agenda, I just know college students can be.. to put it bluntly, extremely irresponsible and downright stupid.

    frat parties and the like prove this end.

    i'm sorry, I just look at a campus and don't instantly think "maturity" or "people capable of rational thought"

    also with the actions of the BLM at Mizzou increasing racial tensions, the prospect for increased violence because of it is present.

    some campuses will be fine, but those that are already a powder keg, I think it is like lighting the fuse and saying it won't blow.
    Kansas is right next door...just don't tell anyone, from MO, that you went to a KS school.

    It is odd that KS is so far ahead regarding the restoration of individual liberty because...it is KS after all.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    My ability to fully articulate my thoughts AND feelings on the matter is somewhat limited currently to whenever someone d3ecides to show up for a service @ work ATM.

    I am for arming students, and faculty, where my base is different is I don't think that firearms for fresh out of highschool students is necessarily the BEST idea, Projectile tasers, pepper spray, and knives.. OK, firearms? eeeeeh it's very grey ATM for me.

    also of those first attending a campus, could one please point out a rational/stable person out of them? I think the "alpha male" mentality sticks around through highschool AND college unfortunately.. it's kind of like watching animal planet when they show a documentary for the social structure of apes or meerkats, and all the participants vying for the leadership spot are being just downright nasty.


    I think the BEST place to put firearms in the hands of, is faculty and security, as well as RETURNING students who have already been out in the real world and have the rationale of responsibility ingrained into them through lifes experiences.

    after all real world survival and responsibility to that survival is, in modern society, pushed off as much as we can unfortunately, except in communities that do not follow current societal climates, such as the Amish. as a result, we have 20+ year olds with a mental maturity of a pre-teen. and we don't trust a preteen with a firearm without supervision for the most part so, I guess that is my point.

    6 in one hand 1/2 dozen in the other.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    My ability to fully articulate my thoughts AND feelings on the matter is somewhat limited currently to whenever someone d3ecides to show up for a service @ work ATM.

    I am for arming students, and faculty, where my base is different is I don't think that firearms for fresh out of highschool students is necessarily the BEST idea, Projectile tasers, pepper spray, and knives.. OK, firearms? eeeeeh it's very grey ATM for me.

    also of those first attending a campus, could one please point out a rational/stable person out of them? I think the "alpha male" mentality sticks around through highschool AND college unfortunately.. it's kind of like watching animal planet when they show a documentary for the social structure of apes or meerkats, and all the participants vying for the leadership spot are being just downright nasty.


    I think the BEST place to put firearms in the hands of, is faculty and security, as well as RETURNING students who have already been out in the real world and have the rationale of responsibility ingrained into them through lifes experiences.

    after all real world survival and responsibility to that survival is, in modern society, pushed off as much as we can unfortunately, except in communities that do not follow current societal climates, such as the Amish. as a result, we have 20+ year olds with a mental maturity of a pre-teen. and we don't trust a preteen with a firearm without supervision for the most part so, I guess that is my point.

    6 in one hand 1/2 dozen in the other.
    The grand majority (maybe all?) of these campus carry bills explicitly state that a permit would be needed to carry on campus. I don't know Missouri law, but I'm almost certain it carries the all-too-familiar stipulation that the permit holder must be 21 or older when the permit is given. Last I checked, "fresh out of highschool" college students tend to be 17-19, not 21.

    At best, you're looking at roughly 20% of the student population (accounting for dropouts, etc.) who are eligible for a permit based on age alone. Add in the disqualifications (out-of-state residency, felonies, violent crimes, mental health, substance abuse, etc.) and the demotivators (permit process takes time, money, and motivation to pursue), and you're left with a rather small percentage of college-aged students who QUALIFY for (legal) campus carry, CAN carry legally (got their permits), and ARE willing to carry (because it takes some commitment to carry something every day).

    As an aside, I'll try not to take offense at the other generalizations you applied in your posts on this thread. The frats and sororities on the University of Arizona campus never represented me or my friends/colleagues.

    Also, what makes knives acceptable but sidearms unacceptable? After only one physiology class (or Google; it knows everything ), one knows more or less where a knife strike could prove incapacitating. Not to mention the folks who already carry guns/knives ILLEGALY and for illicit purposes.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 12-14-2015 at 01:14 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    At best, you're looking at roughly 20% of the student population (accounting for dropouts, etc.) who are eligible for a permit based on age alone. Add in the disqualifications (out-of-state residency, felonies, violent crimes, mental health, substance abuse, etc.) and the demotivators (permit process takes time, money, and motivation to pursue), and you're left with a rather small percentage of college-aged students who QUALIFY for (legal) campus carry, CAN carry legally (got their permits), and ARE willing to carry (because it takes some commitment to carry something every day).
    Let's not also forget the ultimate qualifier...the small percentage that actually HAVE a pistol to carry...
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Legal age to obtain a CCW permit in MO is 19 not 21. Also MO honors all states and political subdivisions permits so a student could obtain a non resident permit from the state of Maine at age 18 and be good to go in MO.
    Last edited by 9026543; 12-14-2015 at 02:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    The grand majority (maybe all?) of these campus carry bills explicitly state that a permit would be needed to carry on campus. I don't know Missouri law, but I'm almost certain it carries the all-too-familiar stipulation that the permit holder must be 21 or older when the permit is given. Last I checked, "fresh out of highschool" college students tend to be 17-19, not 21.

    At best, you're looking at roughly 20% of the student population (accounting for dropouts, etc.) who are eligible for a permit based on age alone. Add in the disqualifications (out-of-state residency, felonies, violent crimes, mental health, substance abuse, etc.) and the demotivators (permit process takes time, money, and motivation to pursue), and you're left with a rather small percentage of college-aged students who QUALIFY for (legal) campus carry, CAN carry legally (got their permits), and ARE willing to carry (because it takes some commitment to carry something every day).

    As an aside, I'll try not to take offense at the other generalizations you applied in your posts on this thread. The frats and sororities on the University of Arizona campus never represented me or my friends/colleagues.

    Also, what makes knives acceptable but sidearms unacceptable? After only one physiology class (or Google; it knows everything ), one knows more or less where a knife strike could prove incapacitating. Not to mention the folks who already carry guns/knives ILLEGALY and for illicit purposes.
    you do realize my ability to fully articulate is limited by time, and of course it seems I'm incapable of fully transcribing my thoughts on it. the frats may be one primary example but the dorms are by no means immune to the same antics.

    I think you also missed the point of where I said 4 year attendee's seem to carry the mentality with them throughout their college career stint. so they get in at 18-19 and exit at 22-23, which is over the permit age.

    I also believe the requirement of a permit would help produce positive carry results because those who can pass the permit class and show a knowledge of law and ability to evaluate circumstance before reacting would also be more beneficial.

    I guess a range with a safety and use instruction class would also be a good thing to have if allowing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    I have no agenda, I just know college students can be.. to put it bluntly, extremely irresponsible and downright stupid.
    frat parties and the like prove this end.
    i'm sorry, I just look at a campus and don't instantly think "maturity" or "people capable of rational thought"
    well said... except this just isn't on a college campus. Actually, the majority of people I come see on the interstate in rush hour don't bring to mind "maturity" or "people capable of rational thought", which is why I like to be armed and don't like restrictions on being armed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    also with the actions of the BLM at Mizzou increasing racial tensions, the prospect for increased violence because of it is present.
    Exactly why I myself would want to be armed to protect myself in that event. Same for my nephews who will be attending college in a few short years. The increased potential for violence is a reason for our RKBA, not an excuse for restriction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    also of those first attending a campus, could one please point out a rational/stable person out of them?
    Sure, I grew up with guns, and, had I been able to would have carried for personal protection without incident. I can say the same for the rest of my family who knows how to raise individuals who are responsible gun owners. I have a 13 year old nephew who regularly carries and uses firearms on the family farm, and when he's 18 will get his permit and absolutely be ready and mature enough for this right (more so than many 40 and 50 year olds I know).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    I think the BEST place to put firearms in the hands of, is faculty and security, as well as RETURNING students who have already been out in the real world and have the rationale of responsibility ingrained into them through lifes experiences.
    Yes, and once out of college the BEST place is in the hands of police and military! Oh, wait, wrong forum, that's the liberal crackpots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    after all real world survival and responsibility to that survival is, in modern society, pushed off as much as we can unfortunately, except in communities that do not follow current societal climates, such as the Amish. as a result, we have 20+ year olds with a mental maturity of a pre-teen. and we don't trust a preteen with a firearm without supervision for the most part so, I guess that is my point.
    Maybe we just run in different circles but I've met plenty of mature responsible 18 year olds that I'm happy to have around carrying, and plenty of 30-50 year olds who I'd run the other way if they decided to carry.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Yet we "allow" these "kids" to drive a car...hmm...interesting.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Yet we "allow" these "kids" to drive a car...hmm...interesting.
    I don't... where did I myself, explicitly allow them to?


    Look I have severely mixed emotions on the subject considering I have a child who will be attending, eventually, and when factoring current social climates, the consistant downturn in morality, and respect for life of others, I am damn scared about her being around current and future generations with this ability, it is only natural as a parent, will probably buy under clothing ballistic vests
    just for extra peace of mind when my child attends, after all, crazies or stray fliers, doesn't matter who pulls the trigger, a bullet is a bullet.

    already plan on buying a ballistic plate level IIIA backpack.

    I also said RETURNING STUDENTS could/should carry as they have been forced to grow up and learn responsiblity if you didn't catch it.

    I am all for liberty, and I do NOT have all the answers, I can only explain how I think at the moment.

    and you grew up with guns? GREAT! wonderful for you, how many other on a campus DID NOT??

    you also mention wanting to be armed because of the actions at mizzou to protect yourself, ok.. NOW your the one in handcuffs on the front page because, politically, it will be easier to demonize you, charge you, and lock you up because you shot a minority.

    don't think that will happen? please your walking right into the door for a propo piece.
    Last edited by Ezek; 12-15-2015 at 09:49 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    wonderful! with one small societal problem. ... as a result this may likely increase on campus shootings where it becomes permitted. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    I don't... where did I myself, explicitly allow them to? ...

    however bravo on getting back something in regards to our rights.
    https://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MS...r_960grid.html

    I'm confused, do you desire the restoration of individual liberty on college campi or not? Do you desire it for others and not your own?

    Cars are far more dangerous to your kid than a pistol on campus is.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    https://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MS...r_960grid.html

    I'm confused, do you desire the restoration of individual liberty on college campi or not? Do you desire it for others and not your own?

    Cars are far more dangerous to your kid than a pistol on campus is.
    i'm confused myself, theres a lot of red flags to this, based on a lot of different current norms, and they go against my desire for individual liberty, so I myself am extremely torn on the situation.

    I guess giving it thought onto the basics of my personal core beleifs, a gun is a WONDERFUL tool for defense, or offense, it's design is simple, AND effective, it gives a GREAT deal of power over the life or death of someone else.

    in that the 2nd itself is also an extremely powerful right, one that I believe an individual should take great itnernal reflection and consideration on before exercising it. as a very old saying that has reverberated through history has said, with great power great responsibility.

    I carry, 90% of the time when I ride, not because I necessarily want to, but because I want to have an equal amount of power and force over someone who would wish to take my life. I see the necessity, I also take training with it seriously as well.

    with campus carry, I see the benefits, I see the problems, like I said 6 in one hand 1/2 dozen in the other.

    if I had my druthers I'd prefer if they where to carry on campus having 4 hours of training per week, with 2 hours focused on increasing accuracy under stressful conditions, 1 hour on team based tactics, and a hour on team based tactics while under fire/stress. and a guide regarding laws and lawful defense, versus unlawful defense.

    I mean after all, if the whole argument is to stop a threat by being armed, we may as well place the emphasis on taking out the threat and only the threat and minimizing collateral.

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