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Thread: Masked men, fake guns and real fear: How police avoided disaster at Lloyd Center

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Masked men, fake guns and real fear: How police avoided disaster at Lloyd Center

    Article in the Oregonian: LINK

    Here's what I posted there. Looking for OCDO insight.


    The problem with this police encounter... there were no laws being broken.

    (Note, just my analysis, I am not a lawyer.)

    How they were dressed, not illegal.
    Walking around in public, not illegal.
    Carrying toy pellet guns (I assume Airsoft type), not illegal if not being pointed at others.
    There is no Disorderly Conduct here, see http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.025

    Could Lloyd Center personnel ask them to leave?
    Yes, it's private property, and if they didn't leave then Trespassing charges could be brought.

    Can police stop and detain them, maybe.
    Under the 4th amendment and Terry v. Ohio there needs to be reasonable articulatable suspicion that a crime has been committed, was being committed, or was about to be committed. Again, what crime were they suspected of?

    Felony stop by police (guns drawn) is over the top, possibly illegal by the police.
    Search and seizure of the toy pellet guns, possibly illegal by the police.

    Pointing or threatening with the toy pellet guns, that would be illegal, but that did not happen according to the article and according to the police spokesman.

    I would bet that charges will be dropped eventually, but not before costing time and money going through lawyers and the court system.

    Civil rights lawsuit could be brought against the police and the city, but it is not real strong and could be lawyer argued around, not worth the time and money to pursue.

    Note: "officers arrived and ordered the crew down to the ground at gunpoint, Lewton said.
    The three followed with the officers' commands to take off their hoods and masks. It turned out they were all 15-year-old boys. Lewton said he believes they all had replica guns.

    So it wasn't until the police had already detained them (at gun point) that they found out they were teenagers. Up to that point they could have been adults, and with CHLs, carrying concealed legally.
    Lloyd Center does have a no guns policy for their property. And while Oregon is an Open Carry state, Portland has a unloaded carry ordinance that is exempted by having a CHL.

    Thoughts / comments?
    "Guns are not the problem … crazy is the problem” ... “We cannot legislate our society to the craziest amongst us.” - Jon Stewart
    “I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." - Tolkien

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Side question, I thought I had seen an Oregon law against wearing masks / face coverings in public (with exceptions like Holloween), but I can't find it in the ORSs. Anyone know if the ORS did / still exsists?
    "Guns are not the problem … crazy is the problem” ... “We cannot legislate our society to the craziest amongst us.” - Jon Stewart
    “I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." - Tolkien

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Reading through the Oregonian article comments it was noted that Portland city code considers a pellet gun a firearm.

    14A.10.010 Definitions
    I. Firearm: a pistol, revolver, gun, rifle, or other mechanism, including a miniature weapon, which projects a missile or shot by force of gunpowder or any other explosive, by spring or by compressed air.

    Thus 14A.60.010 Possession of a Loaded Firearm in a Public Place would apply. (Penalty: up to 6 months and up to $500 fine).

    I think that's a stretch, but again lawyers and court time / costs to fight.

    Edit. Oregon preemption should void the "by spring or by compressed air" part of the Portland city code, the State definition takes precedence.
    Last edited by Lord Sega; 12-07-2015 at 02:52 PM.
    "Guns are not the problem … crazy is the problem” ... “We cannot legislate our society to the craziest amongst us.” - Jon Stewart
    “I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." - Tolkien

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sega View Post
    Reading through the Oregonian article comments it was noted that Portland city code considers a pellet gun a firearm.

    14A.10.010 Definitions
    I. Firearm: a pistol, revolver, gun, rifle, or other mechanism, including a miniature weapon, which projects a missile or shot by force of gunpowder or any other explosive, by spring or by compressed air.
    <snip>.


    A BB is not "shot" IMO nor a missile too. Its a pellet. Shot=multiple pellets A single shotgun "shot" is known as a slug, not shot.


    English is not not required in posts of this forum but it is in law. This statue is so poorly written, its almost useless.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 12-08-2015 at 01:37 PM.

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