Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 37

Thread: Lack of 2nd strike capability

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    836

    Lack of 2nd strike capability

    It is my contention that in a heated fire fight even a well trained/practiced shooter may not immediately realize it if they pulled the trigger and their weapon failed to fire. What with adrenaline, fear, moving for cover, ears ringing, etc., it's understandable.

    So why do so many modern handguns lack second strike capability? Especially striker fired pistols. There are some that do, so it's not like it's an engineering impossibility. What's the rationale for not having that feature on some pistols?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,148
    Minimal parts and minimal expense to the conventional shooter. As you noted, DA/SA and hammer fired don't have that problem. Another good reason to select self-defense guns carefully, more carefully.

    ETA: Ears ringing, no PPE?
    Last edited by Nightmare; 12-09-2015 at 06:57 AM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    836
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    ETA: Ears ringing, no PPE?
    You walk around your daily life with ear plugs in? I'm talking about an actual firefight, not shooting at the range.

    I have a Walther P99 (AKA Smith & Wesson SW99) that is striker fired and it has second strike capability and was no more expensive than a Glock.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,148
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    You walk around your daily life with ear plugs in? I'm talking about an actual firefight, not shooting at the range. [ ... ]
    You have missed other conversations about training protocols and daily life.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Cincy area, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    888
    Going strictly by memory here, I seem to recollect that some of the second strike autopistols had serious flaws and were removed from the marketplace. Taurus comes to mind but I don't remember which models. Think there were some others too. And of course the second strike capability was always an option with the double/single action handguns like the S&W 39/59/ and later series. But, keep reading and you'll see why I would tend not to try that, but rather get that round out of the gun by hand cycling the slide.

    My training with semi auto handguns has long included the "tap rack bang" system of dealing with a failure to fire; the thought being that perhaps the round itself is defective in some way, and even if a second strike was possible, it may well be a critical waste of time.

    That is surely one advantage of the good old double action revolver: By pulling the trigger again, you get a different round under the firing pin.

    Nothing ruins 'Plan A' more quickly than getting a 'click' when you were expecting a 'bang'.

  6. #6
    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Alaska (ex-Colorado)
    Posts
    840
    Just my opinion, take it or leave it.

    I think it's fair to start by discussing your initial assertion. While it's not exactly a life or death fire fight, watch competitive shooters and see what happens when they have a dry magazine or a malfunction. When you say "immediately realize" that's a subjective position. How fast is immediately? I recently had a string in competition where I had a dry magazine immediately followed by a malfunction. Cleared through both in around 4 seconds and finished the stage. So that's bang, click, mag change, bang, click, tap, rack, bang.. in under four seconds. PS, this isn't intended to be a brag. I am NOT a great competitor. Most of the guys I compete against are way faster. I call myself a low speed high drag malfunctioner. We fall to the level we train to right, so if you train to recognize a malfunction and clear it, you will immediately realize and clear. A light strike or misfire on a round when in the heat of life or death is not worth trying to be sure that round is fired. Besides, you could potentially waste more time trying to "diagnose" an unfired round than just clearing it and moving on. Think of it this way. If your normal range practice is to try to re-strike an unfired bullet, that is what you will do when your adrenaline kicks in and you stop thinking. You could waste seconds clicking away on a round because that's what you practice.

    So why not have them? Combat tactics have changed over the years. See above, but which is faster? Bang, click, click, click, realize nothing is happening, take the mental time (even milliseconds) to recognize a misfire, address the malfunction (whether rack slide or revolve cylinder) and get back into the fight. OR Train to know when the gun doesn't go bang and immediately address the malfunction. Bang, click, tap, rack, bang. With a restrike capable pistol, you're training to keep trying to fire a potential dud rather than eject the bullet and move on.
    Last edited by mobiushky; 12-09-2015 at 05:34 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,192
    I carried many pistols with a second strike option never used it for that purpose if a round doesn't fire I get rid of it.

    The pistols that allow a 2nd strike make dry fire practice easier.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 12-09-2015 at 07:06 PM.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,192
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    Going strictly by memory here, I seem to recollect that some of the second strike autopistols had serious flaws and were removed from the marketplace. Taurus comes to mind but I don't remember which models. Think there were some others too. And of course the second strike capability was always an option with the double/single action handguns like the S&W 39/59/ and later series. .
    All most all double action autos have 2nd strike capabilities the S@W 39 series, Ruger P series, Walthers, H@Ks, Sigs to name the top ones.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  9. #9
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,726
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    You walk around your daily life with ear plugs in? I'm talking about an actual firefight, not shooting at the range.

    I have a Walther P99 (AKA Smith & Wesson SW99) that is striker fired and it has second strike capability and was no more expensive than a Glock.
    In a gun fight adrenaline kicks in causing your hearing to shut down.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    836
    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    In a gun fight adrenaline kicks in causing your hearing to shut down.
    This is mostly false. The measure that adenaline affects the brains perception of auditory stimuli is limited at most.

    Over the years I've know several officers who were involved in shootings. Every one of them told me their head was buzzing and ears ringing. They couldn't even hear their radio afterwards, just a din white nosie sound.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    58
    In the war of Northern aggression, muskets were often found abandoned on the field, stuffed to the muzzle with unfired charges. The soldier would forget the cap, pull the trigger, recharge, forget the cap, pull the trigger.....

  12. #12
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,865
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    This is mostly false. The measure that adenaline affects the brains perception of auditory stimuli is limited at most.

    Over the years I've know several officers who were involved in shootings. Every one of them told me their head was buzzing and ears ringing. They couldn't even hear their radio afterwards, just a din white nosie sound.
    yes, tinnitus is a known result from extreme stress situations as well as anxiety due to physiology changes in the circulatory system manifesting itself from the stressful event.

    btw, how is something 'mostly false' ~ uh, the only true every other or third or fourth time or?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,726
    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    In a gun fight adrenaline kicks in causing your hearing to shut down.
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    This is mostly false. The measure that adenaline affects the brains perception of auditory stimuli is limited at most.

    Over the years I've know several officers who were involved in shootings. Every one of them told me their head was buzzing and ears ringing. They couldn't even hear their radio afterwards, just a din white nosie sound.
    If that's the case can I get social security disability?????

  14. #14
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Two things come to mind....
    1) If I'm so preoccupied that I might not notice the first time my pistol failed to fire in a serious social encounter, why would I notice it when it didn't happen again?

    2) Regarding the necessity, what are the chances that a cartridge that failed to fire after being struck once with a hammer/striker is going to fire the second time? Fifty percent? Seventy-five percent? Neither of those would be good enough for me to try to re-fire a known bad cartridge instead of exchanging the known bad for an assumed good cartridge with a quick tap-n-rack.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    836
    Except for one nobody has really offered any reason a manufacturer would produce a pistol without second strike capability. In the old days semi-auto duty weapons with hammers all had second strike cabilility. I doubt the idea that it has to do with how shooters are trained. We were taught tap, cant, rack even back in the days when we carried Ruger P85 with SSC.

    My brother, however, has a Walther PPX in .40 and while it is hammer fired it does not have second strike capibility. Odd.

  16. #16
    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Alaska (ex-Colorado)
    Posts
    840
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Except for one nobody has really offered any reason a manufacturer would produce a pistol without second strike capability. In the old days semi-auto duty weapons with hammers all had second strike cabilility. I doubt the idea that it has to do with how shooters are trained. We were taught tap, cant, rack even back in the days when we carried Ruger P85 with SSC.

    My brother, however, has a Walther PPX in .40 and while it is hammer fired it does not have second strike capibility. Odd.
    Simple answer? Because it's not necessary. No need for it, why keep it?

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,192
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Except for one nobody has really offered any reason a manufacturer would produce a pistol without second strike capability. In the old days semi-auto duty weapons with hammers all had second strike cabilility. I doubt the idea that it has to do with how shooters are trained. We were taught tap, cant, rack even back in the days when we carried Ruger P85 with SSC.

    My brother, however, has a Walther PPX in .40 and while it is hammer fired it does not have second strike capibility. Odd.
    Simple different operating system good, bad or other wise.

    Unless I down to my last couple of cartridges I wouldn't try a 2nd strike.

    If a factory round fails on the first strike there is something very wrong with it.

    Hand loads can be a different matter a slightly high primer could be seated by the first one.

    I still eject them out of hand.

    We went to a slight different drill then a true, tap, rack, bang we added evaluate at the beginning and at the end.

    Tap and rack only works with certain types of malfunctions and can make others worse.

    We found the most common reason that a firearm stopped working was it was out of ammo.

    When we were teaching a true tap, rack, bang we found when the pressure was on shooters would try tapping, racking several times before they realized their firearm was empty thus wasting time. where as a quick look tells one that the slide is lock back and you need to reload.

    Also a revaluation of the situation after taking care of the reason your firearm stopped shooting was needed to hopefully stop unneeded rounds being shot.

    Dealing with highly skilled shooters is very different then dealing with your average to moderate shooter.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    836
    But none of this explains why a manufacturer would change from having it on most pistols to having it on very few. I cannot find any OEM websites that explains why.

    I prefer it for multiple dry firing, which someone already brought up earlier.

  19. #19
    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Alaska (ex-Colorado)
    Posts
    840
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    But none of this explains why a manufacturer would change from having it on most pistols to having it on very few. I cannot find any OEM websites that explains why.

    I prefer it for multiple dry firing, which someone already brought up earlier.
    It's not likely that you'll ever find a reason. New advancements change things, fads change things, economics change things, you name it. Any number of reasons can cause directions to change. I guess if you have to have a reason, put them all on cards, tape them to a dart board and throw a dart. Any of them is as good as any other. I tend to think it lies more in the fad end of things.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,192
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    But none of this explains why a manufacturer would change from having it on most pistols to having it on very few. I cannot find any OEM websites that explains why.

    I prefer it for multiple dry firing, which someone already brought up earlier.
    Maybe it is Just one word.


    GLOCK
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  21. #21
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    north mason county, Washington, USA
    Posts
    4,381

    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Maybe it is Just one word.


    GLOCK
    BTW,, Glock does Not have 2nd strike!!

    I have a P38/01,,, a P64,,, a CZ82,,, and a FNP45, they all have 2nd strike!


    OTOH,,, any semi with an exposed hammer can be recocked manually and tried again!
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 12-13-2015 at 09:53 AM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    130
    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    OTOH,,, any semi with an exposed hammer can be recocked manually and tried again!
    A DA with 2nd strike makes some sense.
    Line up sights, pull trigger, click, pull trigger again while still pointed at your target.

    Anything more complicated than that, do you want to recock and try again, and probably have to clear and chamber a good round anyway, or do you just want to start by clearing?

    With a rimfire, I deal with misfires by recocking, the majority of the time it works.

    With a centerfire, I wouldn't waste much time on it. If it didn't go bang, it probably doesn't want to go bang.
    That goes double for a self defense or hunting situation with a living moving target.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,192
    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    BTW,, Glock does Not have 2nd strike!!

    Exactly a lot of others have followed there lead.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  24. #24
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    S. Kitsap, Washington state
    Posts
    3,763
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    Going strictly by memory here, I seem to recollect that some of the second strike autopistols had serious flaws and were removed from the marketplace. Taurus comes to mind but I don't remember which models. Think there were some others too. And of course the second strike capability was always an option with the double/single action handguns like the S&W 39/59/ and later series. But, keep reading and you'll see why I would tend not to try that, but rather get that round out of the gun by hand cycling the slide.

    My training with semi auto handguns has long included the "tap rack bang" system of dealing with a failure to fire; the thought being that perhaps the round itself is defective in some way, and even if a second strike was possible, it may well be a critical waste of time.

    That is surely one advantage of the good old double action revolver: By pulling the trigger again, you get a different round under the firing pin.

    Nothing ruins 'Plan A' more quickly than getting a 'click' when you were expecting a 'bang'.
    that is certainly true, but (and I'm a revolver nut myself) when you're only starting the game with six (or five) rounds, you're seriously hamstrung by losing one round, because if you need that 5th or 6th shot you now have a full reload, plus if the problem was a hangfire you now have a round about the pop out of batter.

    versus tap. rack. bang. back in the fight with all your ammo .
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

  25. #25
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Or, you could have a batch of wonky or old ammo and experience hang fire.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hang_fire

    Clearing might not be the safest option.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •