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Thread: Age to OC On Own Property

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    Age to OC On Own Property

    Hello,

    I was wanting my 14 year old to start open carrying around the house/property as he goes about his business. He is home schooled and is often in the garage alone during the day. I want him to be able to defend himself. Right now he totes his 20GA around....but it is not always in arms reach. Can he OC a pistol as long as he stays on the property?

    Thanks.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ton80 View Post
    Hello,

    I was wanting my 14 year old to start open carrying around the house/property as he goes about his business. He is home schooled and is often in the garage alone during the day. I want him to be able to defend himself. Right now he totes his 20GA around....but it is not always in arms reach. Can he OC a pistol as long as he stays on the property?

    Thanks.
    No, not IMO. Both of you could have legal problems

    See page #4:
    "(e)It shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person to cause, encourage, or aid a minor who is less than 18 years old to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any BB gun, stun gun, air rifle, air pistol, bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slungshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, metallic knuckles, razors and razor blades (except solely for personal shaving), firework, or any sharp - pointed or edged instrument except instructional supplies, unaltered nail files and clips and tools used solely for preparation of food, instruction, and maintenance, on educational property
    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...Article_35.pdf

    See page #9:
    14-269.7. Prohibitions on handguns for minors.
    (a)Any minor who willfully and intentionally possesses or carries a handgun is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...Article_35.pdf
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No, not IMO. Both of you could have legal problems

    See page #4:
    "(e)It shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor..........................

    See page #9:
    14-269.7. Prohibitions on handguns for minors................[/URL]
    Those do not seem to leave any other option other than "NO!". That is a strong and very narrow bit of wordage.

    I did have a tad of trouble with the part below. I tend to encourage adults and children to carry. I also do not expect an adult to indiscriminately hand a firearm to a minor without adequate training. I see trouble with the Nat'l Guard training 17 yr olds with the myriad of weapons available to them. I could not find anythg
    ing about property rights anywhere in those document. Very very restrictive law.

    a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person to cause, encourage, or aid a minor who is less than 18 years old to possess or carry

    Could there be a difficulty with the lad carrying the scattergun? You cheeky devil, I will bet you "encouraged" him to carry it. What a dumb law.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Those do not seem to leave any other option other than "NO!". That is a strong and very narrow bit of wordage.

    I did have a tad of trouble with the part below. I tend to encourage adults and children to carry. I also do not expect an adult to indiscriminately hand a firearm to a minor without adequate training. I see trouble with the Nat'l Guard training 17 yr olds with the myriad of weapons available to them. I could not find anythg
    ing about property rights anywhere in those document. Very very restrictive law.

    a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person to cause, encourage, or aid a minor who is less than 18 years old to possess or carry

    Could there be a difficulty with the lad carrying the scattergun? You cheeky devil, I will bet you "encouraged" him to carry it. What a dumb law.

    He has been through the NC Gun Handler Safety Course.
    As for the shotgun, he is not "carrying" it around with him....just keeps in the garage when he is out working on his RC planes.

    But I would feel better if had something on his hip....in arms reach at all times!

    So he cannot carry on the property...but if he was in the house and someone broke in, he could pick up the gun laying there and defend himself. He just couldn't be carrying the gun?

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    First, welcome to the forum and i am not offering legal advice

    Second, let's qualify the NC Statutes prohibitions a bit shall we..

    14-269.7. Prohibitions on handguns for minors.
    (a) Any minor who willfully and intentionally possesses or carries a handgun is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    (b) This section does not apply:
    (1) To officers and enlisted personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States when in discharge of their official duties or acting under orders requiring them to carry handguns.
    (2) To a minor who possesses a handgun for educational or recreational purposes while the minor is supervised by an adult who is present.
    (3) To an emancipated minor who possesses such handgun inside his or her residence.
    (4) To a minor who possesses a handgun while hunting or trapping outside the limits of an incorporated municipality if he has on his person written permission from a parent, guardian, or other person standing in loco parentis
    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_14/gs_14-269.7.html

    Third, shall we quantify the issue to your particulars...
    is your property outside the limitations of an incorporated municipality?
    will a caregiver be with your son while he OCs on your property?
    why do you wish your child to OC?

    Fourth, ensure your child has been appropriately educated, either via BSA's shooting sports pgms or NRA's pistol, rifle, shotgun basic courses ~ full courses!

    Fifth...remember to adhere to 14-315.1. Storage of firearms to protect minors. as NC is one of the few states to hold parents accountable if their minors abuses firearms.
    http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislat..._14-315.1.html

    finally: http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299...-gun-Laws.aspx

    ipse

    ad nauseam...where are you located?

    (grape your first reference is on educational property)
    Last edited by solus; 12-09-2015 at 03:57 PM.
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    14-402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.

    (a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase.

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedl...gs_14-402.html

    Is this relevant to the examination?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ton80 View Post
    --snipped--
    So he cannot carry on the property...but if he was in the house and someone broke in, he could pick up the gun laying there and defend himself. He just couldn't be carrying the gun?
    While I would hope that neither of you would have a problem if your son were put in the position of having to defend himself, the law states your gun(s) must not be accessible to him.

    OTOH - his hunting shotgun appears to still be an option. It is a tight squeeze between a rock and a hard place.
    http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/SafeKids/Publications/Firearm%20Safety%20Brochure%20%28Packs%20of%2050%2 9_SK007_4.pdf

    Found an exception!
    14-315.1. Storage of firearms to protect minors. (see page #4)
    (a)Any person who resides in the same premises as a minor, owns or possesses a firearm, and stores or leaves the firearm (i) in a condition that the firearm can be discharged and (ii) in a manner that the person knew or should have known that an unsupervised minor would be able to gain access to the firearm, is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor if a minor gains access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor's parents or a person having charge of the minor and the minor:
    (1)Possesses it in violation of G.S. 14-269.2(b);
    (2)Exhibits it in a public place in a careless, angry, or threatening manner;
    (3)Causes personal injury or death with it not in self defense; or
    (4)Uses it in the commission of a crime.
    (b)Nothing in this section shall prohibit a person from carrying a firearm on his or her body, or placed in such close proximity that it can be used as easily and quickly as if carried on the body.
    (c)This section shall not apply if the minor obtained the firearm as a result of an unlawful entry by any person.
    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedl...article_39.pdf
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-09-2015 at 04:08 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    14-402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.

    (a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase.

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedl...gs_14-402.html

    Is this relevant to the examination?
    no, it this NC statute is specifically mandated for the sale of firearms utilizing the PPP or the CHP.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    First, welcome to the forum and i am not offering legal advice

    Second, let's qualify the NC Statutes prohibitions a bit shall we..

    14-269.7. Prohibitions on handguns for minors.
    (a) Any minor who willfully and intentionally possesses or carries a handgun is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    (b) This section does not apply:
    (1) To officers and enlisted personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States when in discharge of their official duties or acting under orders requiring them to carry handguns.
    (2) To a minor who possesses a handgun for educational or recreational purposes while the minor is supervised by an adult who is present.
    (3) To an emancipated minor who possesses such handgun inside his or her residence.
    (4) To a minor who possesses a handgun while hunting or trapping outside the limits of an incorporated municipality if he has on his person written permission from a parent, guardian, or other person standing in loco parentis
    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedl...69.7.htmlThird, shall we quantify the issue to your particulars...
    is your property outside the limitations of an incorporated municipality?
    will a caregiver be with your son while he OCs on your property?
    why do you wish your child to OC?

    Fourth, ensure your child has been appropriately educated, either via BSA's shooting sports pgms or NRA's pistol, rifle, shotgun basic courses ~ full courses!

    Fifth...remember to adhere to 14-315.1. Storage of firearms to protect minors. as NC is one of the few states to hold parents accountable if their minors abuses firearms.
    http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislat..._14-315.1.html

    finally: http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299...-gun-Laws.aspx

    ipse

    ad nauseam...where are you located?

    (grape your first reference is on educational property)
    I am in Fayetteville NC...inside the city limits...for now.
    Yes, a legal guardian would be on the premises when he would carry.
    Reason I wanted this is the garage is detached from the house. We have had an incident where a thief came up into the garage and attempted to steal my mountain bike. We believe my oldest son came home from school while the person was in the garage and he got spooked and left...did not take the bike....just some smaller trivial things. Anyway, I just do not want my 14 year old to get surprised like that.
    I have no issue with him and guns....I just don't want a nosy neighbor or someone to call the law and have them role up on him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    While I would hope that neither of you would have a problem if your son were put in the position of having to defend himself, the law states your gun(s) must not be accessible to him.

    OTOH - his hunting shotgun appears to still be an option. It is a tight squeeze between a rock and a hard place.
    http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/SafeKids/Publications/Firearm%20Safety%20Brochure%20%28Packs%20of%2050%2 9_SK007_4.pdf

    Found an exception!
    14-315.1. Storage of firearms to protect minors. (see page #4)
    (a)Any person who resides in the same premises as a minor, owns or possesses a firearm, and stores or leaves the firearm (i) in a condition that the firearm can be discharged and (ii) in a manner that the person knew or should have known that an unsupervised minor would be able to gain access to the firearm, is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor if a minor gains access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor's parents or a person having charge of the minor and the minor:
    (1)Possesses it in violation of G.S. 14-269.2(b);
    (2)Exhibits it in a public place in a careless, angry, or threatening manner;
    (3)Causes personal injury or death with it not in self defense; or
    (4)Uses it in the commission of a crime.
    (b)Nothing in this section shall prohibit a person from carrying a firearm on his or her body, or placed in such close proximity that it can be used as easily and quickly as if carried on the body.
    (c)This section shall not apply if the minor obtained the firearm as a result of an unlawful entry by any person.
    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedl...article_39.pdf
    So, If I understand this correctly, since I am giving him permission/access to the weapon....then no misdemeanor. And, does section (b) actually state he can carry???

    I hate all the legal jargon/wording.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No, not IMO. Both of you could have legal problems

    See page #4:
    "(e)It shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person to cause, encourage, or aid a minor who is less than 18 years old to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any BB gun, stun gun, air rifle, air pistol, bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slungshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, metallic knuckles, razors and razor blades (except solely for personal shaving), firework, or any sharp - pointed or edged instrument except instructional supplies, unaltered nail files and clips and tools used solely for preparation of food, instruction, and maintenance, on educational property
    Home school does not meet the specific definition of educational property.

    14-269.2. Weapons on campus or other educational property.
    (a) The following definitions apply to this section:
    (1) Educational property. - Any school building or bus, school campus, grounds, recreational area, athletic field, or other property owned, used, or operated by any board of education or school board of trustees, or directors for the administration of any school.


    The short answer is NO, because he will be alone and the law requires he be supervised by an adult. Being on your own property is not an exception.

    Solus' fifth and final points are relevant; Macbeth's post is not.
    Last edited by bc.cruiser; 12-09-2015 at 06:11 PM. Reason: add cite

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    SUBCHAPTER IX. OFFENSES AGAINST THE PUBLIC PEACE.
    Article 35.
    Offenses Against the Public Peace.
    14-269. Carrying concealed weapons.
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and intentionally to carry concealed about his person any bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slung shot, loaded cane, metallic knuckles, razor, shurikin, stun gun, or other deadly weapon of like kind, except when the person is on the person's own premises.
    (a1) It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and intentionally to carry concealed about his person any pistol or gun except in the following circumstances:
    (1) The person is on the person's own premises.
    What part of Article 35 applies to person's own premises in the carrying of a gun??????

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    What part of Article 35 applies to person's own premises in the carrying of a gun??????
    All of it, if the person is carrying CC. The two sections you highlighted, (a1) and (1) are both subsets of (a) and are there because NC allows only handguns to be concealed.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    All of it, if the person is carrying CC. The two sections you highlighted, (a1) and (1) are both subsets of (a) and are there because NC allows only handguns to be concealed.
    I think you missed my point. Article 35 has NO force and effect on the person's own premises. In other words, your free to carry anyway you wish on your own premises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I think you missed my point. Article 35 has NO force and effect on the person's own premises. In other words, your free to carry anyway you wish on your own premises.
    I believe it is you who has missed the point of this section. Section 35 is not restricting anything with regard to your private property, rather it affirms your right to do what you want on your own property. It is your protection against government, just as is the Bill of Rights.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    I believe it is you who has missed the point of this section. Section 35 is not restricting anything with regard to your private property, rather it affirms your right to do what you want on your own property. It is your protection against government, just as is the Bill of Rights.
    Tomato tomahto potato potahto!!!!!!!

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    Whoa, whoa, whoa...

    Are we all missing the forest for the trees here?

    Because this parent can't properly lock up her garage, or put up a gate or secure her possessions she wants to put the onus on a 14 year old to possibly have to shoot and kill a burglar, and then, because it's usually not OK to use deadly force to protect property, go to JAIL?

    Come on.

    1. Put up a fence. How much is your son's life worth?
    2. Secure your garage put a lock on it and when he's out there he closes and locks the door.
    3. Secure your possessions in your garage.
    4. Get a good guard dog,
    5. Hire a babysitter/adult for the short period that you are not able to be there...
    ...and so on.

    Do NOT have as your only option a 14 year old who, probably being small and of limited physical ability, must resort to Deadly Force as his only option to protect your BICYCLE, fercryinoutloud.

    For the OP, did you report this attempted theft? Did you ask for additional police presence in your area because of that? Often they will drive by a couple times if you ask. IOW, exhaust ALL OTHER OPTIONS before you do this stupid, stupid plan of yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    I believe it is you who has missed the point of this section. Section 35 is not restricting anything with regard to your private property, rather it affirms your right to do what you want on your own property. It is your protection against government, just as is the Bill of Rights.
    @color of law bc.cruiser is extremely knowledgeable on NC gun rights. The grey areas between the written text matter here.

    I am pro-police but if no crime is being committed (RAS/PC) on your property, then the police are not invited on said property. Your son can simply ask them to leave and come back when my parents/guardians are home. I have complete faith that you've trained your son well as you stated that he's been to a firearm awareness course.

    There have been many statutes referenced in the preceding posts. You are obviously in a grey area that no-one can specifically identify. Be smart and prepared to defend your son if "something" should happen.

    ETA: - pretty sure you answered your own question in post #14. No-one here will ever advocate breaking the law when it comes to OC or CC, personal property, however, is a different animal altogether.

    ........since when do we here on OC.org advise that a homeowner should buy a dog / build a fence in response to a question about personal / family security and self defense?.....can't quite agree with that one.
    Last edited by razor_baghdad; 12-10-2015 at 11:42 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Police are known to shoot dogs.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Don't see anything wrong with perimeter security, alarm systems and locks. Think that they all have a place in home security.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Don't see anything wrong with perimeter security, alarm systems and locks. Think that they all have a place in home security.
    100% agree....


  22. #22
    Regular Member razor_baghdad's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Don't see anything wrong with perimeter security, alarm systems and locks. Think that they all have a place in home security.
    Agree Grape. So do firearms.....LOL

    I was referring to the advice that someone needed dogs and a fence IN LIEU OF the "better" or "OUR" option. All in all, any defense is better than no defense.

    After all, this is a firearm site, not dockdogs.com.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor_baghdad View Post
    Agree Grape. So do firearms.....LOL

    I was referring to the advice that someone needed dogs and a fence IN LIEU OF the "better" or "OUR" option. All in all, any defense is better than no defense.

    After all, this is a firearm site, not dockdogs.com.
    Was only making an observation, not pointing a finger. Multiple levels/options was my point.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ton80 View Post
    I am in Fayetteville NC...inside the city limits...for now.
    Yes, a legal guardian would be on the premises when he would carry.
    Reason I wanted this is the garage is detached from the house. We have had an incident where a thief came up into the garage and attempted to steal my mountain bike. We believe my oldest son came home from school while the person was in the garage and he got spooked and left...did not take the bike....just some smaller trivial things. Anyway, I just do not want my 14 year old to get surprised like that.
    I have no issue with him and guns....I just don't want a nosy neighbor or someone to call the law and have them role up on him.
    Ton, you are aware NC citizens may not use deadly force to protect property, to including pointing a firearm at someone ( 14-34. Assaulting by pointing gun)?

    please put that into your decision making.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  25. #25
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    A 14 y/o has not the right to self defense, on his own property, in NC?

    Hmm...I'll have to reconsider any future interactions with/within NC.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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