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Thread: "gun permit" = RAS/PC?

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    "gun permit" = RAS/PC?

    I found myself talking about an interesting topic last week. The claim was made that if you are a gun license holder but travel to a state that doesn't recognize your permit, if traffic stopped, the officer can search your vehicle based on the fact that you are a license/permit holder and nothing more. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?
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    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I found myself talking about an interesting topic last week. The claim was made that if you are a gun license holder but travel to a state that doesn't recognize your permit, if traffic stopped, the officer can search your vehicle based on the fact that you are a license/permit holder and nothing more. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?
    Good question....

    In Ohio Conceal carry license data in maintained in the "Law enforcement automated data system (LEADS)".

    http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/4501:2-10
    Chapter 4501:2-10 Law Enforcement Automated Data System (LEADS)
    (W) "Law enforcement automated data system (LEADS)" means the statewide computerized network which provides computerized data and communications for criminal justice agencies within the state of Ohio. LEADS is administered by the Ohio state highway patrol superintendent. LEADS does not include data and files separately collected and maintained by intrastate regional systems or other individual user systems.

    Other states do not have access to LEADS.

    I don't know if Ohio enters this info into other databases, but I would bet they do. Review the above link and you will see all the other systems out there.

    There is no such thing as privacy.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Where is the evidence you are carrying now at that moment.

    Just like a cop seeing you have a weapon concealed doesn't automatically create PC, I'd say simply having a permit doesn't either.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Enjoying qualified immunity, the cop can violate your rights in any way it wants, at any time it wishes. ALL the victim can do is assert his Fourth and Fifth Amendment Rights.

    Orally identify yourself. "I consent to no search. I will not resist. I will not speak but on advise of counsel."

    Read FourthAmendment.com by John Wesley Hall, Esq.

    There is no way a cop can know that anyone holds a Wisconsin Concealed Weapon License
    Last edited by Nightmare; 12-13-2015 at 09:56 AM.
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    No possible way the John Filippidis search was legal in the USA.
    Unfortunately for John, we don't live in that country any more.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...traf/?page=all

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Enjoying qualified immunity, the cop can violate your rights in any way it wants, at any time it wishes. ALL the victim can do is assert his Fourth and Fifth Amendment Rights.

    Orally identify yourself. "I consent to no search. I will not resist. I will not speak but on advise of counsel."

    Read FourthAmendment.com by John Wesley Hall, Esq.

    There is no way a cop can know that anyone holds a Wisconsin Concealed Weapon License
    Sorry that is not true, please cite the law or court ruling stating this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Sorry that is not true, please cite the law or court ruling stating this.
    The law in general prohibits rather than permits. You should know that. It was very clever how you ignored the prefatory clause.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 12-13-2015 at 11:01 AM.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I found myself talking about an interesting topic last week. The claim was made that if you are a gun license holder but travel to a state that doesn't recognize your permit, if traffic stopped, the officer can search your vehicle based on the fact that you are a license/permit holder and nothing more. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?
    I've been stopped before by authorities in Oregon, in that case I heard the officer's dispatcher telling the officer I had a Wash. CPL over his radio.

    he made no big deal about it. didn't say anything involving weapons.

    I'm sure an officer could try that claim, maybe one has, but I've seen no court rulings to this effect myself.

    I mean if you have a driver's license can a policeman demand you open your garage so he can do an inspection of your car? that's about the same logic. it only confers an extra privilage, it doesn't impose a requirement to be armed.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The law in general prohibits rather than permits. You should know that. It was very clever how you ignored the prefatory clause.
    In respect to agencies of the state, they can only do what the legislature allows them to do. They rarely state that an agency cannot do something but state what they can do...so if they do something that the legislature did not authorize them to do, then this would be an illegal act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    In respect to agencies of the state, they can only do what the legislature allows them to do. They rarely state that an agency cannot do something but state what they can do...so if they do something that the legislature did not authorize them to do, then this would be an illegal act.
    I claim my right under the Rule of Five! ... it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    Otherwise, meet me on the field of honor, my search engine versus your limp 'sword'!
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    ... There is no way a cop can know that anyone holds a Wisconsin Concealed Weapon License...
    With few qualifications, I'll say the same of the Georgia Weapons License.
    1) It's a state license but issued by the individual county, specifically the Probate Court
    2) It's a crime to establish or maintain a centralized database of GWL's (IOW no in-state or out-of-state agency can make a computer query.)
    3) With 159 counties, it might be a bit expensive/arduous to call each clerk of court

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I found myself talking about an interesting topic last week. The claim was made that if you are a gun license holder but travel to a state that doesn't recognize your permit, if traffic stopped, the officer can search your vehicle based on the fact that you are a license/permit holder and nothing more. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?
    I have seen no case law on this point.

    For sure, Maryland state police were discovered focusing on cars with VA license plates. Maryland does not recognize VA permits, but has plenty of VA travelers. This was maybe six years ago. Haven't heard anything about it since then.

    Separately, very recently I saw a court decision. I do not recall the legal point. What stuck in my mind was the indication that motorists from a medical-marijuana state were being singled out for traffic stops in an adjoining state without medical marijuana laws.

    Can the cop of a state that does not recognize your permit search your car when he sees on the license check return that you have a CCW permit? You gotta think through all the little intricate complexities. What is to stop him? Little. Without case law declaring such a search a violation of your 4th Amendment rights (search and seizure), you cannot sue him because in order to pierce his qualified immunity, you have to prove he violated an established right that a reasonable officer should have known about. Meaning, there has to be case law directly on point that says such a search violates the 4th Amendment (at the federal level, anyway).

    Thus, I suspect the door is open. Maybe not wide open, but plenty. I suspect a cop could do it and get away with it. When I say "get away with it", I mean not be reversed by a judge later.

    It also occurs to me that courts almost always side with police on questions involving officer safety. If the officer who performs such a search manages to argue "officer safety" without too much absurdity (contradictions in the facts of the case), I would bet the court would side with the cop.

    The safest bet is to carry nothing illegal into such a state. It won't be the gun you left at home that gets you arrested. It will be the prescription pill that fell down between the seats. And, based on my lay analysis, I think there is a reasonable chance a court will side with cop in saying the search was legal.

    Will you spend five years in prison? No. Will spend several thousand dollars in legal fees before the charges are dropped? Maybe.
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-13-2015 at 01:53 PM.
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    Just this morning, John Wesley Hall mentions a case in which particular auto license plates were denied as RAS.
    http://fourthamendment.com/?p=19956
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Precedent: St. John v. Alamogordo Police Order

    St. John's Claim for Unreasonable Search
    If, during the course of a valid investigatory detention, an officer has an articulable and
    reasonable suspicion that a suspect is armed and dangerous, the officer may conduct a limited
    protective search. U.S. v. Davis, 94 F.3d 1465, 1468 (10th Cir. 1996). Such a search must be
    "reasonably related in scope to the circumstances which justified the interference in the first
    place," Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 20 (1968), and should be limited to ensuring that the suspect is
    unarmed. King, 990 F.2d at 1558 (citing Sibron v. New York, 392 U.S. 40 (1968)).
    As discussed above, Defendants' detention of Mr. St. John was not a "valid investigatory
    detention." Defendants had no reason to suspect that Mr. St. John was involved in, or was about
    to become involved in, any criminal activity. Nor did they have any reason to believe that Mr. St.
    John posed a safety threat. Accordingly, Defendants' search of Mr. St. John was invalid.
    Case 6:08-cv-00994-BB-LAM Document 48 Filed 09/08/2009 Page 10 of 16
    11
    Additionally, Defendants lacked any reasonable suspicion for believing that Mr. St. John
    was armed and dangerous, as required by Tenth Circuit jurisprudence. See Davis, 94 F.3d at
    1468. Defendants ask the Court to ignore the conjunctive phrasing of the rule and find, in
    essence, that anyone who is armed is, by virtue of that fact, dangerous. In light of the extensive,
    controlling and compelling jurisprudence to the contrary, the Court declines to do so.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I found myself talking about an interesting topic last week. The claim was made that if you are a gun license holder but travel to a state that doesn't recognize your permit, if traffic stopped, the officer can search your vehicle based on the fact that you are a license/permit holder and nothing more. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?
    You are in violation of their anti-liberty gun laws...thus a felony (in some states)/misdemeanor (in other states) is in progress...what do you think Deputy Barney Fife should do at this juncture.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    You are in violation of their anti-liberty gun laws...thus a felony (in some states)/misdemeanor (in other states) is in progress...what do you think Deputy Barney Fife should do at this juncture.
    get diverted to JFY and get stuck on a weather layover w/a firearm in your luggage and enjoy the nice conversation with the LEs when you attempt to get back on...

    or drive thru NJ and enjoy that experience if stopped...

    well documented on these threads...

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post

    In Ohio Conceal carry license data in maintained in the "Law enforcement automated data system (LEADS)".

    http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/4501:2-10
    Chapter 4501:2-10 Law Enforcement Automated Data System (LEADS)
    (W) "Law enforcement automated data system (LEADS)" means the statewide computerized network which provides computerized data and communications for criminal justice agencies within the state of Ohio. LEADS is administered by the Ohio state highway patrol superintendent. LEADS does not include data and files separately collected and maintained by intrastate regional systems or other individual user systems.

    Other states do not have access to LEADS.

    I don't know if Ohio enters this info into other databases, but I would bet they do. Review the above link and you will see all the other systems out there.

    There is no such thing as privacy.
    Through the last 11 years we have had reports on the Ohioans For Concealed Carry forum from Buckeye residents with an Ohio CHL being stopped by LE in other states. At times those officers knew about the license somehow. And especially so when these folks crossed into Canada; Customs on that side admitted to having the info on their computer screens. So yes, I think the LEADS data is shared with other agencies, even with at least one other nation.

    These stories have come from too many posters there to ignore out of hand.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    If you have a CPL you must be a drug dealer as there is no other way you could afford a gun.

    So just like having money, the police will just sue your gun and lock it up and then sell it for profit later.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I claim my right under the Rule of Five! ... it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    Otherwise, meet me on the field of honor, my search engine versus your limp 'sword'!

    Being artificial creatures of statute, such entities have neither an inherent nor a common-law right to sue. Rather, the right to sue, if it exists at all, must be derived from the relevant enabling legislation or some other concrete statutory predicate"


    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...en&as_sdt=8006

    here's a good one ... but one could also search this basic legal principle on google scholar if they wish...thousands of examples ... I found this one funny ... NYers fighting among themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Being artificial creatures of statute, such entities have neither an inherent nor a common-law right to sue. Rather, the right to sue, if it exists at all, must be derived from the relevant enabling legislation or some other concrete statutory predicate" https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...en&as_sdt=8006 here's a good one ... but one could also search this basic legal principle on google scholar if they wish...thousands of examples ... I found this one funny ... NYers fighting among themselves.
    I don't see a citation to a statute there.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I don't see a citation to a statute there.
    What statue would you like to see? Because I doubt you/anyone will find a statue...agencies are creatures of the legislature..they only have power to do what the legislature authorizes them to do.

    It sounds like you are looking for laws that do not/will not exist....like a law prohibiting the DMV from enforcing capitol murder crimes. You won't find one I think in any state.

    The ball is in your court...show proof that an agency can do something that the legislature did not authorize them to do.

    Search "creature of statue" or "creatures of statue" .... you'll find thousands of examples .. including even ones outside of state agencies but of any agency created by a statue..like corporations, etc.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 12-16-2015 at 12:48 PM.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    What statue would you like to see? Because I doubt you/anyone will find a statue...agencies are creatures of the legislature..they only have power to do what the legislature authorizes them to do.

    It sounds like you are looking for laws that do not/will not exist....like a law prohibiting the DMV from enforcing capitol murder crimes. You won't find one I think in any state.

    The ball is in your court...show proof that an agency can do something that the legislature did not authorize them to do.

    Search "creature of statue" or "creatures of statue" .... you'll find thousands of examples .. including even ones outside of state agencies but of any agency created by a statue..like corporations, etc.
    Have trouble finding a statue? Come to Washington, DC -- we have LOTS of statues here. I took your advice and searched on "creatures of statue" and I got hits for gargoyles ... do they count? I'm have a problem finding where any statue has created an agency...
    Last edited by JamesCanby; 12-16-2015 at 03:26 PM.
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