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Thread: DL stops?

  1. #1
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    DL stops?

    ok, background...large, local locked down major NC mental health facility has 'campus security' who, in NC are BLET sworn employees but are not actually sworn LE associated with an agency! there is a 2 lane State Route running through the main campus. these 'campus security' run speed traps along all perimeter paved roads.

    today, standing in the middle of the State Route were 5 uniformed 'campus security' employees stopping traffic both ways ~ doing a DL check, no insurance, nothing else. when proffering my DL through the window, as required by law stated i was armed ~ reaction whatsoever.

    away i went. called state troopers who advised they could do that it is there property...when it was pointed out they're on the SR doing a DL check the state trooper's dispatch said...'OH REALLY I'll check into it!! click.DL

    my question is are these type of impromptu DL stops 'legal' or are they suppose to be 'announced' like DWI checks...

    and the concept of 'campus security' doing pulling these type of stops and if they find someone's DL is not in order?

    anybody have input...

    ipse
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    If I remember correctly the USSC approved DL roadblocks, but they must give notice just like DWI.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Come to think of it, I believe the USSC said roadblocks can be used to check to see if your panties are in a wad.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    If I remember correctly the USSC approved DL roadblocks, but they must give notice just like DWI.
    thanks for prompt comeback

    ya that was my perception...favor, you provided the initials now can you spell the name...when i put it in i got the sentencing commission to the utitec swim club...

    thanks for assuring this brain wasn't dead...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    So what do they do if you don't show or have a DL? Write you a campus ticket? Impound your car? Call the Feds if they suspect your might be 'undocumented'?


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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    off searching case law...thanks color for pointing me...

    now to discern if 'campus security' has the authority.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    thanks for prompt comeback

    ya that was my perception...favor, you provided the initials now can you spell the name...when i put it in i got the sentencing commission to the utitec swim club...

    thanks for assuring this brain wasn't dead...

    ipse
    DWI???? -driving while intoxicated. In Ohio OVI - Operating a Vehicle Impaired....

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    thanks color for the direction...

    letter being developed to the highest elected peace officer in the county, State patrol commander, and governor asking about this event. I will be especially requesting an explanation why the local NC mental health's 'campus security' is conducting roadblocks to check DL checks on public state highways and what their rationale and what is their governmental interest as 'campus security' : quote: ...involved in conducting roadblocks to enforce the licensing and registration laws is the promotion of highway safety. unquote.

    if quote: The Camara balancing test also requires an evaluation of the intrusion caused by the roadblock stop on the fourth amendment interests of motorists. unquote was appropriately applied by this 'campus security' entity.

    finally ,coupled with an inquiry why this entity feels they can violate the law of the land where quote: ... the Supreme Court has made it clear that absent a reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct, a police officer cannot require a person to identify himself. unquote.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 12-16-2015 at 10:30 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    thanks color for the direction...

    letter being developed to the highest elected peace officer in the county, State patrol commander, and governor asking about this event. I will be especially requesting an explanation why the local NC mental health's 'campus security' is conducting roadblocks to check DL checks on public state highways and what their rationale and what is their governmental interest as 'campus security' : quote: ...involved in conducting roadblocks to enforce the licensing and registration laws is the promotion of highway safety. unquote.

    if quote: The Camara balancing test also requires an evaluation of the intrusion caused by the roadblock stop on the fourth amendment interests of motorists. unquote was appropriately applied by this 'campus security' entity.

    finally ,coupled with an inquiry why this entity feels they can violate the law of the land where quote: ... the Supreme Court has made it clear that absent a reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct, a police officer cannot require a person to identify himself. unquote.

    ipse
    Yes, but not in a motor vehicle.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Yes, but not in a motor vehicle.
    hummm...again thanks for the guidance

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    http://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/...e-legal-issues

    ^^ good article. Three types of checkpoints that are legal are driver’s license, DUI and immigration checkpoints.

    College security doing a checkpoint? Likely is not going to pass muster.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    http://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/...e-legal-issues

    ^^ good article. Three types of checkpoints that are legal are driver’s license, DUI and immigration checkpoints.

    College security doing a checkpoint? Likely is not going to pass muster.
    If you don’t show your driver’s license, officers will run a background check on you. If they see you have a valid license but weren’t able to display it (e.g., you left it at home), then you’ll receive a ticket and will be allowed to go. If officers see that you are driving on a suspended or revoked license, or if you have no history of owning a license, then you will be arrested.
    Not in Ohio. If the computer shows you have a valid DL then you have a DL, period. In Ohio you are not required to have the DL on your person. In Cincinnati a cop is being prosecuted for murder because he shot and killed a guy for not having a DL. The cop refused to check the computer.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    http://dor.mo.gov/pdf/Chapter1.pdf
    If you do not have a social security number:

    You must sign a notarized affidavit stating that you have not been issued a social security number. At the time of application, the affidavit will be provided by the license office.

    You must present a letter from the Social Security Administration (SSA) regarding the status of your social security number.
    This is complete bull. No one is required to have a SS number. The SS-5 form even says so.
    The information you furnish on this form is voluntary. However, failure to provide the requested information may prevent us from issuing you a Social Security number and card.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    This has got to be one of the most absurd court decisions I've ever heard about--a person can be involuntarily seized by roadblock in order to solicit his voluntary cooperation with an investigation. Bwahahahahahahahahahaa!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    This has got to be one of the most absurd court decisions I've ever heard about--a person can be involuntarily seized by roadblock in order to solicit his voluntary cooperation with an investigation. Bwahahahahahahahahahaa!!
    Welcome to Amerika.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    http://dor.mo.gov/pdf/Chapter1.pdf


    This is complete bull. No one is required to have a SS number. The SS-5 form even says so.
    You are the first person besides me to point this out, thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    This has got to be one of the most absurd court decisions I've ever heard about--a person can be involuntarily seized by roadblock in order to solicit his voluntary cooperation with an investigation. Bwahahahahahahahahahaa!!
    That's because you have a functioning brain. Unlike others who are public officials. Maybe they put them into a room where they do something to their brains, I don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Not in Ohio. If the computer shows you have a valid DL then you have a DL, period. In Ohio you are not required to have the DL on your person. In Cincinnati a cop is being prosecuted for murder because he shot and killed a guy for not having a DL. The cop refused to check the computer.
    My post was under the 4th amendment umbrella.

    Nice that a cop murdered someone for not presenting his DL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Not in Ohio. If the computer shows you have a valid DL then you have a DL, period. In Ohio you are not required to have the DL on your person. In Cincinnati a cop is being prosecuted for murder because he shot and killed a guy for not having a DL. The cop refused to check the computer.
    This is an interesting point. Ultimately, I believe the overall conclusion is that government's massive inconsistencies and contradictions arise from trying to explain away or gloss over what they're really up to; but, for the moment, I'll focus on the bold-face text in your quote.

    In VA our CCW permits are called concealed handgun permits (CHP). The little card in your wallet is the license. It is the official government document and carries the circuit court judges original signature. Not a copy of his signature, the actual ink from the actual pen the circuit court judge used to sign your permit. Yet, police insist on being able to check the state police database containing all permits statewide. This is irrational and absurd. If I provide the cop with the actual legal document signed by the judge, that is it. Yet, police seem to hold that the damned actual legal document does not count until they verify it against the database. Which is hogwash, of course. The only verification would be to check the judge's signature against a sample of the judge's signature. Otherwise, the police are really saying the legal document does not count as a legal document until they decide it is a legal document.

    Of course, what they're really up to is something more in the vicinity of being able to arrest someone for a revoked permit who did not turn in his permit. (Maybe VCDL can research the number of revoked permits statewide?) This argument came up years ago on this forum. A cop registrant on the forum held fast to the idea that it was important for cops to be able to compare the presented permit against revoked permits in the database. Of course, that cop did not realize he was giving away that police do not really consider the holder of a revoked permit all that dangerous--or they willfully let dangerous revoked-permit holders walk among us. If they considered a revoked permit all that important, they would move heaven and earth to track down the holder of the revoked permit and take it back, not just log it in a database and wait for the person to stumble into a cop during a traffic stop. The fact they do not track down and recover revoked permits proves they don't think it is all that important. Meaning, they know that even the possessor of a revoked permit is not automatically dangerous.

    Yet, my permit doesn't count unless the police officer confronting me verifies it against the state police database. Meaning, its not really a valid legal document until the police say it is, not the judge who signed literally the piece of paper I handed the cop. Oh, they want the judge or magistrate's signature on their warrant application, but suddenly when its a CHP, the judge's original signature doesn't really count.
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-18-2015 at 10:52 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    This is an interesting point. Ultimately, I believe the overall conclusion is that government's massive inconsistencies and contradictions arise from trying to explain away or gloss over what they're really up to; but, for the moment, I'll focus on the bold-face text in your quote.

    In VA our CCW permits are called concealed handgun permits (CHP). The little card in your wallet is the license. It is the official government document and carries the circuit court judges original signature. Not a copy of his signature, the actual ink from the actual pen the circuit court judge used to sign your permit. Yet, police insist on being able to check the state police database containing all permits statewide. This is irrational and absurd. If I provide the cop with the actual legal document signed by the judge, that is it. Yet, police seem to hold that the damned actual legal document does not count until they verify it against the database. Which is hogwash, of course. The only verification would be to check the judge's signature against a sample of the judge's signature. Otherwise, the police are really saying the legal document does not count as a legal document until they decide it is a legal document.

    Of course, what they're really up to is something more in the vicinity of being able to arrest someone for a revoked permit who did not turn in his permit. (Maybe VCDL can research the number of revoked permits statewide?) This argument came up years ago on this forum. A cop registrant on the forum held fast to the idea that it was important for cops to be able to compare the presented permit against revoked permits in the database. Of course, that cop did not realize he was giving away that police do not really consider the holder of a revoked permit all that dangerous--or they willfully let dangerous revoked-permit holders walk among us. If they considered a revoked permit all that important, they would move heaven and earth to track down the holder of the revoked permit and take it back, not just log it in a database and wait for the person to stumble into a cop during a traffic stop. The fact they do not track down and recover revoked permits proves they don't think it is all that important. Meaning, they know that even the possessor of a revoked permit is not automatically dangerous.

    Yet, my permit doesn't count unless the police officer confronting me verifies it against the state police database. Meaning, its not really a valid legal document until the police say it is, not the judge who signed literally the piece of paper I handed the cop. Oh, they want the judge or magistrate's signature on their warrant application, but suddenly when its a CHP, the judge's original signature doesn't really count.
    Good points. And leads to this query: has anyone sued for extending a stop beyond the needed time for the traffic ticket? After all, checking a database extends the stop for no needed reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Good points. And leads to this query: has anyone sued for extending a stop beyond the needed time for the traffic ticket? After all, checking a database extends the stop for no needed reason.
    Not that I know of. And, I don't think it would come up, in VA anyway. You see, your CCW permit (its called a CHP in VA) is tied to your driver's license in the state police database. So, even if you do not tell the cop you have a CHP, he's gonna find out you have a CHP the instant he types your driver's license number into the system during a traffic stop. I do not recall the precise information, but I have this vague recollection that all your vehicle records are inter-connected in the state police database. Meaning, (if I recall correctly), even if somebody else is driving your car, when the cop checks the vehicle registration, the existence of the CHP is flagged on his computer screen.

    Now, I cannot imagine the state police, once notified by the local sheriff or court about a CHP revocation--I cannot imagine the state police would omit to include in the database the revocation of the permit such that it comes up as a flag about a revoked CHP on the vehicle registration or driver's license.

    Thus, I suspect it would be an uphill--and still losing--battle to sue for a 4th Amendment (search and seizure) violation over an unreasonably extended traffic stop. I'm willing to be wrong. But, just thinking about it superficially and off-the-cuff, I suspect the revocation would come up instantly with the driver's license record. I don't see a lawsuit having much of a chance.
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-19-2015 at 08:49 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member FBrinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    In VA our CCW permits are called concealed handgun permits (CHP). The little card in your wallet is the license. It is the official government document and carries the circuit court judges original signature. Not a copy of his signature, the actual ink from the actual pen the circuit court judge used to sign your permit. Yet, police insist on being able to check the state police database containing all permits statewide. This is irrational and absurd. If I provide the cop with the actual legal document signed by the judge, that is it.
    Odd, mine was signed by the Circuit Court Clerk. Should I take it back and exchange it for a real CHP?

  24. #24
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    The courts say the length of the traffic stop must be no longer than the time it takes to issue a ticket/citation. How long is that? Usually 15/20 minutes is considered reasonable. But, here we go again, what is reasonable? Well, the court says that must be determined case by case. Lets not forget we have to take into account the officers experience. The computer was running slow and just slow enough to allow the officer with the four legged sniffing poodle to arrive.

    Time only becomes an issue when you are arrested because the poodle smelled counterfeit kibbles and bits and the smell test was well past the time to write the ticket. Look, the check and balances of the three branches of gov. are long gone. In rare occasions it works in your favor.

    I believe the body cameras will help level the playing field.
    Last edited by color of law; 12-19-2015 at 09:22 PM.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    The courts say the length of the traffic stop must be no longer than the time it takes to issue a ticket/citation. How long is that? Usually 15/20 minutes is considered reasonable. But, here we go again, what is reasonable? Well, the court says that must be determined case by case. Lets not forget we have to take into account the officers experience. The computer was running slow and just slow enough to allow the officer with the four legged sniffing poodle to arrive. Time only becomes an issue when you are arrested because the poodle smelled counterfeit kibbles and bits and the smell test was well past the time to write the ticket. Look, the check and balances of the three branches of gov. are long gone. In rare occasions it works in your favor. I believe the body cameras will help level the playing field.
    Durham PD's assistant chief believes in his policy he is developing...•Video footage captured by the cameras are records of a criminal investigation, just like the current in-car camera footage. As such, they are not public records per North Carolina General Statute 132-14.http://abc11.com/news/residents-have...n/1126609/ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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