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DL stops?

davidmcbeth

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This is an interesting point. Ultimately, I believe the overall conclusion is that government's massive inconsistencies and contradictions arise from trying to explain away or gloss over what they're really up to; but, for the moment, I'll focus on the bold-face text in your quote.

In VA our CCW permits are called concealed handgun permits (CHP). The little card in your wallet is the license. It is the official government document and carries the circuit court judges original signature. Not a copy of his signature, the actual ink from the actual pen the circuit court judge used to sign your permit. Yet, police insist on being able to check the state police database containing all permits statewide. This is irrational and absurd. If I provide the cop with the actual legal document signed by the judge, that is it. Yet, police seem to hold that the damned actual legal document does not count until they verify it against the database. Which is hogwash, of course. The only verification would be to check the judge's signature against a sample of the judge's signature. Otherwise, the police are really saying the legal document does not count as a legal document until they decide it is a legal document.

Of course, what they're really up to is something more in the vicinity of being able to arrest someone for a revoked permit who did not turn in his permit. (Maybe VCDL can research the number of revoked permits statewide?) This argument came up years ago on this forum. A cop registrant on the forum held fast to the idea that it was important for cops to be able to compare the presented permit against revoked permits in the database. Of course, that cop did not realize he was giving away that police do not really consider the holder of a revoked permit all that dangerous--or they willfully let dangerous revoked-permit holders walk among us. If they considered a revoked permit all that important, they would move heaven and earth to track down the holder of the revoked permit and take it back, not just log it in a database and wait for the person to stumble into a cop during a traffic stop. The fact they do not track down and recover revoked permits proves they don't think it is all that important. Meaning, they know that even the possessor of a revoked permit is not automatically dangerous.

Yet, my permit doesn't count unless the police officer confronting me verifies it against the state police database. Meaning, its not really a valid legal document until the police say it is, not the judge who signed literally the piece of paper I handed the cop. Oh, they want the judge or magistrate's signature on their warrant application, but suddenly when its a CHP, the judge's original signature doesn't really count.

Good points. And leads to this query: has anyone sued for extending a stop beyond the needed time for the traffic ticket? After all, checking a database extends the stop for no needed reason.
 

Citizen

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Good points. And leads to this query: has anyone sued for extending a stop beyond the needed time for the traffic ticket? After all, checking a database extends the stop for no needed reason.

Not that I know of. And, I don't think it would come up, in VA anyway. You see, your CCW permit (its called a CHP in VA) is tied to your driver's license in the state police database. So, even if you do not tell the cop you have a CHP, he's gonna find out you have a CHP the instant he types your driver's license number into the system during a traffic stop. I do not recall the precise information, but I have this vague recollection that all your vehicle records are inter-connected in the state police database. Meaning, (if I recall correctly), even if somebody else is driving your car, when the cop checks the vehicle registration, the existence of the CHP is flagged on his computer screen.

Now, I cannot imagine the state police, once notified by the local sheriff or court about a CHP revocation--I cannot imagine the state police would omit to include in the database the revocation of the permit such that it comes up as a flag about a revoked CHP on the vehicle registration or driver's license.

Thus, I suspect it would be an uphill--and still losing--battle to sue for a 4th Amendment (search and seizure) violation over an unreasonably extended traffic stop. I'm willing to be wrong. But, just thinking about it superficially and off-the-cuff, I suspect the revocation would come up instantly with the driver's license record. I don't see a lawsuit having much of a chance.
 
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FBrinson

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In VA our CCW permits are called concealed handgun permits (CHP). The little card in your wallet is the license. It is the official government document and carries the circuit court judges original signature. Not a copy of his signature, the actual ink from the actual pen the circuit court judge used to sign your permit. Yet, police insist on being able to check the state police database containing all permits statewide. This is irrational and absurd. If I provide the cop with the actual legal document signed by the judge, that is it.

Odd, mine was signed by the Circuit Court Clerk. Should I take it back and exchange it for a real CHP?
 

color of law

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The courts say the length of the traffic stop must be no longer than the time it takes to issue a ticket/citation. How long is that? Usually 15/20 minutes is considered reasonable. But, here we go again, what is reasonable? Well, the court says that must be determined case by case. Lets not forget we have to take into account the officers experience. The computer was running slow and just slow enough to allow the officer with the four legged sniffing poodle to arrive.

Time only becomes an issue when you are arrested because the poodle smelled counterfeit kibbles and bits and the smell test was well past the time to write the ticket. Look, the check and balances of the three branches of gov. are long gone. In rare occasions it works in your favor.

I believe the body cameras will help level the playing field.
 
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solus

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The courts say the length of the traffic stop must be no longer than the time it takes to issue a ticket/citation. How long is that? Usually 15/20 minutes is considered reasonable. But, here we go again, what is reasonable? Well, the court says that must be determined case by case. Lets not forget we have to take into account the officers experience. The computer was running slow and just slow enough to allow the officer with the four legged sniffing poodle to arrive. Time only becomes an issue when you are arrested because the poodle smelled counterfeit kibbles and bits and the smell test was well past the time to write the ticket. Look, the check and balances of the three branches of gov. are long gone. In rare occasions it works in your favor. I believe the body cameras will help level the playing field.
Durham PD's assistant chief believes in his policy he is developing...•Video footage captured by the cameras are records of a criminal investigation, just like the current in-car camera footage. As such, they are not public records per North Carolina General Statute 132-14.http://abc11.com/news/residents-have-doubts-about-durham-police-body-cam-plan/1126609/ipse
 

davidmcbeth

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Durham PD's assistant chief believes in his policy he is developing...•Video footage captured by the cameras are records of a criminal investigation, just like the current in-car camera footage. As such, they are not public records per North Carolina General Statute 132-14.http://abc11.com/news/residents-have-doubts-about-durham-police-body-cam-plan/1126609/ipse

Most states have exemptions for public records under their open records laws...but they have the burden of proving its for actual criminal investigations. Not all videos would likely fall into this exemption category.
 

solus

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Most states have exemptions for public records under their open records laws...but they have the burden of proving its for actual criminal investigations. Not all videos would likely fall into this exemption category.

nice assistant chief marsh say all are exempt which I thought was precious.

added...I have not gotten a copy of his 'policy' to review...and rural religious eastern NC is still embracing 'brownies' as the latest technology so not sure when it will be even thought of here...

sidebar...find it interesting chief marsh stated the cams are being purchased by a 'grant' but didn't indicate from where.
ipse
 
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Grapeshot

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Odd, mine was signed by the Circuit Court Clerk. Should I take it back and exchange it for a real CHP?

Mere technicality that is apparently authorized. Perhaps bring it before the Henrico CA to actually require a judge do something productive with regard to RKBA :lol:.

Durham PD's assistant chief believes in his policy he is developing...•Video footage captured by the cameras are records of a criminal investigation, just like the current in-car camera footage. As such, they are not public records per North Carolina General Statute 132-14.http://abc11.com/news/residents-have-doubts-about-durham-police-body-cam-plan/1126609/ipse
Video footage only when it is good for us, not for thee.

Had an occasion where I was denied all electronic communication, field notes, etc. under the same excuse = on going criminal investigation. The not so funny thing is that the subject/actor of information requested was limited to ME. When I asked what crime, past or future, was I suspected of having had involvement, the answer was crickets.

Didn't follow through hard enough (my bad) but the Sgt. involved was moved to a desk job and eventually forced out of the department - I believe as a direct result of this and other transgressions.
 
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color of law

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Durham PD's assistant chief believes in his policy he is developing...•Video footage captured by the cameras are records of a criminal investigation, just like the current in-car camera footage. As such, they are not public records per North Carolina General Statute 132-14.http://abc11.com/news/residents-have-doubts-about-durham-police-body-cam-plan/1126609/ipse
Link is 404 - This should work...
http://abc11.com/news/residents-have-doubts-about-durham-police-body-cam-plan/1126609/
 

color of law

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I'm involved in a case where two police cruiser videos were released in discovery, but the first cruiser that actually recorded the event is missing, it wasn't preserved, it was destroyed in the normal schedule of record retention and on and on and on with excuses. How convenient.
 

Citizen

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Odd, mine was signed by the Circuit Court Clerk. Should I take it back and exchange it for a real CHP?

!?! You made me look. :)

Mine was definitely signed by the judge.

What does the statute say? Apply to the circuit court, or some such.

Alternatively, if I recall, the state police were tasked with devising the form/format. If the form/format devised by the state police says "judge" beneath the signature line, then I'm betting yours is not a lawful CHP.
 

FBrinson

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!?! You made me look. :)

Mine was definitely signed by the judge.

What does the statute say? Apply to the circuit court, or some such.

Alternatively, if I recall, the state police were tasked with devising the form/format. If the form/format devised by the state police says "judge" beneath the signature line, then I'm betting yours is not a lawful CHP.

https://vacode.org/18.2-308/
 

Grapeshot

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BINGO! That answers the question as who may sign the CHP validating it. Black letter law.

See section H

".....the signature of the judge issuing the permit, of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to issue such permits pursuant to subsection D...."

That answers the question as who may sign the CHP.
 
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carolina guy

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Concord, NC
ok, background...large, local locked down major NC mental health facility has 'campus security' who, in NC are BLET sworn employees but are not actually sworn LE associated with an agency! there is a 2 lane State Route running through the main campus. these 'campus security' run speed traps along all perimeter paved roads.

today, standing in the middle of the State Route were 5 uniformed 'campus security' employees stopping traffic both ways ~ doing a DL check, no insurance, nothing else. when proffering my DL through the window, as required by law stated i was armed ~ reaction whatsoever.

away i went. called state troopers who advised they could do that it is there property...when it was pointed out they're on the SR doing a DL check the state trooper's dispatch said...'OH REALLY I'll check into it!! click.DL

my question is are these type of impromptu DL stops 'legal' or are they suppose to be 'announced' like DWI checks...

and the concept of 'campus security' doing pulling these type of stops and if they find someone's DL is not in order?

anybody have input...

ipse

The BLET students or the instructors? The students are nothing more than students unless working for a Sheriff that has decided to deputize them prior to completion of BLET (a big risk for the Sheriff).

http://ncja.ncdoj.gov/Commission-Courses/BLET.aspx
 
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