Virginia to stop honoring some out-of-state concealed handgun permits

TFred · Dec 30, 2015

utbagpiper said:
Since Virginia recognizes the Utah permit, Virginia residents have to be in possession of a Virginia permit before Utah will issue a non-resident permit.

It appears that the Virginia AG has used the claim that 25 formerly recognized permits do not impose the same requirements as a Virginia permit and so cannot be recognized under Virginia law. I believe Utah's requirement to first obtain your home-State permit is the one thing that kept Utah on the list since no Virginia resident can obtain a Utah permit without first obtaining their Virginia permit.

So, no joy for Virginia residents attempting to avoid the public disclosure nature of the Virginia permit.

But for those Virginia residents who have a Virginia permit, and for anyone else who is eligible for a Utah permit, the Utah permit continues to offer fairly widespread recognition.

Charles

Why would you continue to believe this after I proved to you that another state's permit (Texas) was NOT excluded even though there is no such requirement? Are you aware of an actual discrepancy between the requirements of Utah's permit and Virginia's permit?

TFred

grylnsmn · Dec 30, 2015

utbagpiper said:
It appears that the Virginia AG has used the claim that 25 formerly recognized permits do not impose the same requirements as a Virginia permit and so cannot be recognized under Virginia law. I believe Utah's requirement to first obtain your home-State permit is the one thing that kept Utah on the list since no Virginia resident can obtain a Utah permit without first obtaining their Virginia permit.

But, that doesn't address the rationale (weak as it is) given for revoking reciprocity.

Consider, for example, a Florida resident. After February 1, their Florida permit is no longer valid in Virginia. However, with that Florida permit, they meet the Utah requirement to have your home-state permit, and can get a Utah permit (after meeting all other Utah requirements). If the only thing that kept Utah on the list for Virginia was that Virginia residents have to get a Virginia permit, it does nothing to make sure that Florida residents with a Utah permit fully comply with the Virginia requirements. If the Florida permit doesn't qualify on its own, then adding the Utah permit does no good unless the Utah permit qualifies on its own.

scooter348 · Dec 30, 2015

If the Governor truly is a gun owner like he claims, is there any way to investigate whether he went through a background check to get his firearm?

TFred · Dec 30, 2015

utbagpiper said:
I believe Utah's requirement to first obtain your home-State permit is the one thing that kept Utah on the list since no Virginia resident can obtain a Utah permit without first obtaining their Virginia permit.

grylnsmn said:
But, that doesn't address the rationale (weak as it is) given for revoking reciprocity.

Consider, for example, a Florida resident. After February 1, their Florida permit is no longer valid in Virginia. However, with that Florida permit, they meet the Utah requirement to have your home-state permit, and can get a Utah permit (after meeting all other Utah requirements). If the only thing that kept Utah on the list for Virginia was that Virginia residents have to get a Virginia permit, it does nothing to make sure that Florida residents with a Utah permit fully comply with the Virginia requirements. If the Florida permit doesn't qualify on its own, then adding the Utah permit does no good unless the Utah permit qualifies on its own.

Exactly!

The logic is weak in this one!

TFred

markand · Dec 30, 2015

glockfan said:
In the meantime how do we get around this after February 1st? By obtaining Utah and Pennsylvania non-resident permits? Won't that give us every State we had plus a few more?

Many of the states VA is dropping reciprocity with recognize all permits, so they should continue to recognize ours even after we stop recognizing theirs. By my count, there are 7 states a VA resident permit holder is likely to lose: FL, LA, ND, NM, PA, SC, WY. I don't know if any more are at risk. OC is an option in some, but not all, of the states we'll lose.

A UT permit will retain 3 of the states a VA permit holder is likely to loose: ND, WY, LA and pick up 4 more you didn't get with VA anyway: WA, WI, DE, GA. Its a great permit and economical to obtain and keep and will add 7 more states to your VA permit when the dust settles on or shortly after Feb 1.

A PA permit picks up PA (They don't recognize non-resident permits anymore and you have to have a home state permit to get a PA permit, but it gets you PA)

A FL permit gets FL and NM (FL doesn't recognize any non-resident permit but their own). Its more effort and expense to obtain and keep compared to other non-resident permits, but if you want to carry in FL, that's what is necessary sometime after Feb 1.

That gets back 6 of the 7 we're likely to lose.

South Carolina is a hard loss. SC doesn't recognize anybody else's non-resident permit and only issue their own non-resident permit to SC property owners and active duty military stationed in SC.

There is reciprocity overlap among these states and others. Depends upon where you want to be able to conceal carry and how much effort and expense you're willing to endure to do so. There are other states who don't and haven't recognized a VA permit and aren't directly involved in this reciprocity dust-up, but where shall issue paths exist: NV, NH, IL, MN, ME (ME doesn't require permits anymore, unless you want to carry in ME state parks or Acadia National Park).

Full disclosure, I'm a UT instructor in northern VA (Fairfax area) and run several UT/Multi-state classes every month.

taurusfan · Dec 30, 2015

markand said:
Many of the states VA is dropping reciprocity with recognize all permits, so they should continue to recognize ours even after we stop recognizing theirs. By my count, there are 7 states a VA resident permit holder is likely to lose: FL, LA, ND, NM, PA, SC, WY. I don't know if any more are at risk.

Thanks for your analysis. I was thinking the same that we Virginians will need non-resident, Utah, Florida and Pennsylvania.

Looking at the PA permit form from this page:

http://web.co.lancaster.pa.us/372/Firearms-Unit

It's weird in that one must choose a Sheriff in a County somewhere in PA that is willing to issue non-resident permits and not all of them are. They require the application be presented in person also.

I'm not sure which is the "best" Sheriff to use I just randomly looked at Lancaster.

JustaShooter · Dec 31, 2015

glockfan said:
Looking at the PA permit form from this page:

http://web.co.lancaster.pa.us/372/Firearms-Unit

It's weird in that one must choose a Sheriff in a County somewhere in PA that is willing to issue non-resident permits and not all of them are. They require the application be presented in person also.

I'm not sure which is the "best" Sheriff to use I just randomly looked at Lancaster.

The ones I'm familiar with (being close to the OH/PA border) that will issue to non-residents, *and* just as importantly allow out-of-state references on the application, are Erie, Crawford, and Butler Counties. There are others, but for OH residents those were the only ones close to the border. I think Centre County is still non-resident friendly, but son't know about others that would be closer for a VA resident to visit.

utbagpiper · Dec 31, 2015

TFred said:
Why would you continue to believe this after I proved to you that another state's permit (Texas) was NOT excluded even though there is no such requirement? Are you aware of an actual discrepancy between the requirements of Utah's permit and Virginia's permit?

I believe this because I did some additional research.

From your AG's letter of excuse listing reasons Virginia won't issue a permit:

"--redacted---"

From Utah's law disqualifying possession of guns and obtaining a permit:

Redacted.

I posted this, then decided there was no reason to make it too easy for our opponents to give the AG an easy reason to drop the Utah permit.

I suspect there may be other, non-material, but technical differences your AG could have used to disqualify Utah. It seems quite evident his intent was to disqualify as many permits as he possibly could. But the Utah requirement for Virginia residents to first obtain a Virginia permit means that Virginia residents cannot possibly get a Utah permit if they do not qualify for a Virginia permit.

I do not know the particulars of the Texas permit requirements and without further research can only surmise that it actually meets or exceeds the Virginia requirements in every jot and tittle.

You've made clear that you are unhappy that Utah is not assisting you in efforts to have a permit without the invasions of privacy created by the Virginia permit being a public record which some of your local media have exploited to harass permit holders. All I can suggest is to work to fix that problem with the Virginia permit, which probably requires changing your governor, AG, and a few legislators.

All the best.

Charles

utbagpiper · Dec 31, 2015

grylnsmn said:
But, that doesn't address the rationale (weak as it is) given for revoking reciprocity.

Consider, for example, a Florida resident. After February 1, their Florida permit is no longer valid in Virginia. However, with that Florida permit, they meet the Utah requirement to have your home-state permit, and can get a Utah permit (after meeting all other Utah requirements). If the only thing that kept Utah on the list for Virginia was that Virginia residents have to get a Virginia permit, it does nothing to make sure that Florida residents with a Utah permit fully comply with the Virginia requirements. If the Florida permit doesn't qualify on its own, then adding the Utah permit does no good unless the Utah permit qualifies on its own.

Perfectly logical. I would expect the AG to correct his oversight and only recognize Utah non-resident permits held by Virginians as soon as someone points this out to him. With 3 minutes' research, I found one discrepancy in requirements that would allow the anti-gun AG to drop Utah altogether if that is his intent, which it seems to be. I wonder how long before he finds it or someone points it out to him. Will it be a gun grabber, or an anti-permit member of our forum who does so?

Charles

Grapeshot · Dec 31, 2015

utbagpiper said:
--snipped--

You've made clear that you are unhappy that Utah is not assisting you in efforts to have a permit without the invasions of privacy created by the Virginia permit being a public record which some of your local media have exploited to harass permit holders. All I can suggest is to work to fix that problem with the Virginia permit, which probably requires changing your governor, AG, and a few legislators.

All the best.

Charles

Virginia permit (CHP) data is not public information any longer.
http://articles.dailypress.com/2013...inia-state-police-public-records-virginia-gun

utbagpiper · Dec 31, 2015

Grapeshot said:
Virginia permit (CHP) data is not public information any longer.
http://articles.dailypress.com/2013...inia-state-police-public-records-virginia-gun

That is good news. And fairly old news too it seems: 2013. Leaves me wondering why TFred or any other Virginians would have any more heartburn getting a Virginia permit than they would obtaining a Utah non-res permit.

Charles

HPmatt · Dec 31, 2015

This could be next part of tightening the screws

From Legal Insurrection:

Starting January 10, Alaska, California, Illinois, Minnesota, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico, South Carolina, and Washington would be out of compliance with requirements for state-issued driver’s licenses used as identification at airports. Despite the deep concerns about privacy and fears over potential misuse of the national database that is to be created from information collected during the license compliance process, the TSA is now going to strong-arm states to comply.

TSA is giving 120 day notice period - so May w/b current date to clamp down (except CA gets till Oct - do they can issue millions more DLs to illegals)

The one comment from sanddog - notes Commies want to use real ID for NICS/background checks - can knock out a lot of gun purchases if you are from one if these states and don't have a passport you are out of luck.

http://www.legalinsurrection.com/2015/12/tsas-countdown-to-real-id-act-enforcement-begins/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TFred · Dec 31, 2015

utbagpiper said:
That is good news. And fairly old news too it seems: 2013. Leaves me wondering why TFred or any other Virginians would have any more heartburn getting a Virginia permit than they would obtaining a Utah non-res permit.

It's a red-letter day, you get to learn something new today.

THIS is why I don't want a permit from any state that associates it with my license plate. Our current resident tyrant vetoed a bill that would stop our LEO employees from publishing this information to other LEO organizations, choosing instead to allow foreign LEOs to harass Virginia citizens with impunity.

TFred

grylnsmn · Dec 31, 2015

HPmatt said:
This could be next part of tightening the screws

From Legal Insurrection:

Starting January 10, Alaska, California, Illinois, Minnesota, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico, South Carolina, and Washington would be out of compliance with requirements for state-issued driver’s licenses used as identification at airports. Despite the deep concerns about privacy and fears over potential misuse of the national database that is to be created from information collected during the license compliance process, the TSA is now going to strong-arm states to comply.

TSA is giving 120 day notice period - so May w/b current date to clamp down (except CA gets till Oct - do they can issue millions more DLs to illegals)

The one comment from sanddog - notes Commies want to use real ID for NICS/background checks - can knock out a lot of gun purchases if you are from one if these states and don't have a passport you are out of luck.

http://www.legalinsurrection.com/2015/12/tsas-countdown-to-real-id-act-enforcement-begins/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Washington State isn't completely non-compliant. Washington offers two different options for DL.ID cards. The first is a standard driver's license/ID card, which is non-compliant. The other is an Enhanced Driver's License (EDL)/ID card, which is not only Real ID compliant, but can also be used in place of a passport for land and sea border crossings.

As I am about to move to Washington State (leaving this weekend, with the family following soon after), I plan to get an EDL (mostly to not need a passport to visit Canada).

HPmatt · Dec 31, 2015

Kind of like an American Matriculadora...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jbp114 · Jan 3, 2016

JustaShooter said:
The ones I'm familiar with (being close to the OH/PA border) that will issue to non-residents, *and* just as importantly allow out-of-state references on the application, are Erie, Crawford, and Butler Counties. There are others, but for OH residents those were the only ones close to the border. I think Centre County is still non-resident friendly, but son't know about others that would be closer for a VA resident to visit.

Crawford won't issue to VA permit holders now. I was visiting relatives over Christmas and decided to pick up a PA permit because of the loss of reciprocity. Crawford's sheriff doesn't consider a VA permit valid anymore so he won't issue a PA non resident permit to anymore from VA. I don't know if it's just one sheriff or we'll have issues in all counties now.

JustaShooter · Jan 4, 2016

jbp114 said:
Crawford won't issue to VA permit holders now. I was visiting relatives over Christmas and decided to pick up a PA permit because of the loss of reciprocity. Crawford's sheriff doesn't consider a VA permit valid anymore so he won't issue a PA non resident permit to anymore from VA. I don't know if it's just one sheriff or we'll have issues in all counties now.

Thanks for the info - I wonder why? They used to issue to OH residents with an OH license, even before they recognized the OH license (which of course was why Ohioans were interested in getting a PAS license). So, why would a VA license being valid or not in PA matter?

I'll keep my ears open and see if I can find out anything else.

utbagpiper · Jan 5, 2016

TFred said:
It's a red-letter day, you get to learn something new today.

THIS is why I don't want a permit from any state that associates it with my license plate. Our current resident tyrant vetoed a bill that would stop our LEO employees from publishing this information to other LEO organizations, choosing instead to allow foreign LEOs to harass Virginia citizens with impunity.

I'm always open to learning something new. What a shame that some folks seem so opposed to providing information in a timely, usable format. I could have understand your position much sooner had you bothered to explain it to me when it came up.

I'm still not willing to advocate for changes in Utah's permit requirements. But at least I now have an accurate understanding of your concerns with the Virginia permit. Sounds like Virginians need some stronger protections for the privacy of the permit information. They need to do this rather than ignoring the problem by getting some out-of-State permit. RKBA supporters in every State need to be actively involved in making their State laws the very best they can be....and then coming back the next year to make them a little better. And I need to make some inquires to make sure Utah law protects against the kind of disclosure you and the linked article allude to.

I wish you all the best in correcting the personnel problems and RKBA problems they have caused.

Charles

TFred · Jan 5, 2016

utbagpiper said:
I'm always open to learning something new. What a shame that some folks seem so opposed to providing information in a timely, usable format. I could have understand your position much sooner had you bothered to explain it to me when it came up.

I'm still not willing to advocate for changes in Utah's permit requirements. But at least I now have an accurate understanding of your concerns with the Virginia permit. Sounds like Virginians need some stronger protections for the privacy of the permit information. They need to do this rather than ignoring the problem by getting some out-of-State permit. RKBA supporters in every State need to be actively involved in making their State laws the very best they can be....and then coming back the next year to make them a little better. And I need to make some inquires to make sure Utah law protects against the kind of disclosure you and the linked article allude to.

I wish you all the best in correcting the personnel problems and RKBA problems they have caused.

Charles

I don't make a habit of leading every conversation with the details of my personal decisions.

I would estimate I'm in the top 5 percentile of active involvement on RKBA issues among the general population. I can't single-handedly oust a tyrannical governor, but I can choose to obtain a permit that doesn't publish my information to traitorous law enforcement agencies.

I've done all I can do, but apparently it is yet once again, not enough.

TFred

Grapeshot · Jan 5, 2016

TFred said:
I don't make a habit of leading every conversation with the details of my personal decisions.

I would estimate I'm in the top 5 percentile of active involvement on RKBA issues among the general population. I can't single-handedly oust a tyrannical governor, but I can choose to obtain a permit that doesn't publish my information to traitorous law enforcement agencies.

I've done all I can do, but apparently it is yet once again, not enough.

TFred

You're much too conservative (modesty?) in your estimate TFred. See you as front and center, the edge of a gladius or point of a spear, in defending/promoting the RKBA.

Virginia to stop honoring some out-of-state concealed handgun permits

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