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Thread: VCU designs another fish barrel

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    VCU designs another fish barrel

    Note to any BGs who need a safe place to practice their trade.

    RICHMOND, VA (WWBT) - "VCU is going to ramp up security at the Siegel Center, starting with Sunday's game with Liberty University at 5 p.m.

    Saturday, the VCU Athletic Department announced plans to heighten security for home basketball games. The athletics department says the new safety measures might slow fans down from entering the arena." = no weapons.

    http://www.nbc12.com/story/30835053/vcu-increasing-security-for-home-basketball-games

    Not really sure what is news worthy here though as VCU has had a long standing rule against guns inside university buildings, if I am not mistaken.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I get your point, but as long as they cover ALL entry points, and ALL people coming into the space, this is not a classic "gun free" zone. It has long been my thought (and many others, I suspect) that any place the government wanted to be truly gun free was fine, as long as a) they provided adequate security against crazy people with non-firearms weapons, and b) they ensured that EVERYBODY in the space was equally dis-armed.

    Courthouses and secure airport terminals being the general examples, it is this sort of full screening that has usually been too expensive to implement that keeps the "gun free" zone from being an actual gun free zone, and therefore gets people killed.

    TFred

    ETA: Now... the blocks AROUND the stadium, as spectators walk to and from the event... THAT'S a whole other story, and you are exactly right. Free unarmed victim zone for muggings and hold-ups!!
    Last edited by TFred; 12-27-2015 at 03:41 PM.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Is there some issue that I'm unaware of that has caused this "heightened security?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Is there some issue that I'm unaware of that has caused this "heightened security?"
    Liberty University is coming to the Siegel Center, some of their students might be carrying, they will be gunning for VCU - you know what they say about that mix
    I don't expect it, but I'd like to see LU stomp VCU on the hardwoods.

    On a more serious note - no known credible evidence of any specific threat. I personally think it is mostly security theater (not all will agree), and would expect a determined individual(s) could breach the perimeter and find no one to oppose them.

    Then there is the Ivory Tower mentality complete with magic incantations - we say no weapons and wave our wand = poof, you are safe.
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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    1. No one can guarantee that a no weapons checkpoint is going to stop all weapons. Even maximum security prisons have weapons found among the populace on a regular basis. The TSA was recently audited and found to regularly allow firearms and other weapons through their sterility checkpoints.

    2. Such no weapons equality means nothing when one man is accosted by a gang intent on doing him harm.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    1. No one can guarantee that a no weapons checkpoint is going to stop all weapons. Even maximum security prisons have weapons found among the populace on a regular basis. The TSA was recently audited and found to regularly allow firearms and other weapons through their sterility checkpoints.

    2. Such no weapons equality means nothing when one man is accosted by a gang intent on doing him harm.
    A janitor or temp employee could likely stash a number of weapons, just waiting for the "unarmed" combatants to enter - jus' saying.....or will they be doing the security dance on every employee, vendor, and contractor too?

    I am not opposed to good security, I just don't buy into it as it is being sold. I still want to provide an element of my own.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-28-2015 at 05:31 AM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Inside help is a great way to get weapons in a area and almost impossible to stop.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Let us not forget the extended exposure/vulnerability of thousands of people to and from these events.........or will VCU provide each of them protection until they have the means to do so for themselves?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Note to any BGs who need a safe place to practice their trade.

    RICHMOND, VA (WWBT) - "VCU is going to ramp up security at the Siegel Center, starting with Sunday's game with Liberty University at 5 p.m.


    [/URL]Not really sure what is news worthy here though as VCU has had a long standing rule against guns inside university buildings, if I am not mistaken.
    What is noteworthy here is that state agency preemption would fix the problem.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Liberty University is coming to the Siegel Center, some of their students might be carrying...
    Of course! How could we have missed this connection?

    So speculation: will they institute this policy of enhanced security for ANY other games this season? If not, isn't this some sort of discrimination?

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Of course! How could we have missed this connection?

    So speculation: will they institute this policy of enhanced security for ANY other games this season? If not, isn't this some sort of discrimination?

    TFred
    VCU announced plans to heighten security for home basketball games....that would be all home games.

    Sure it is discrimination, just not illegal discrimination,as basketball fans are not a protected class.

    If and when televised, those watching from home will not be subject to the same rules/restrictions.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Let us not forget the extended exposure/vulnerability of thousands of people to and from these events.........or will VCU provide each of them protection until they have the means to do so for themselves?
    I guess you could attend w bullet-proof vests and ceramic knives...


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    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    I guess you could attend w bullet-proof vests and ceramic knives...
    Bullet resistant vests w/o trauma plates offer little to no protection against a real blade and they don't protect some of the most lethal points.

    I was thinking about the unarmed trip from home and back w/o means of self-defense.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I get your point, but as long as they cover ALL entry points, and ALL people coming into the space, this is not a classic "gun free" zone. It has long been my thought (and many others, I suspect) that any place the government wanted to be truly gun free was fine, as long as a) they provided adequate security against crazy people with non-firearms weapons, and b) they ensured that EVERYBODY in the space was equally dis-armed.

    Courthouses and secure airport terminals being the general examples, it is this sort of full screening that has usually been too expensive to implement that keeps the "gun free" zone from being an actual gun free zone, and therefore gets people killed.

    TFred

    ETA: Now... the blocks AROUND the stadium, as spectators walk to and from the event... THAT'S a whole other story, and you are exactly right. Free unarmed victim zone for muggings and hold-ups!!
    I won't go so far as "any place the government wanted to be truly gun free" being fine. I will concede there are some, rare, areas where there are legitimate security concerns that require disarming the public. Prisons, jails, secure mental hospitals, and possibly court rooms strike me as areas where there are sufficient, legitimate need to disarm the public as to justify disarming the public.

    While talking about carrying guns into the cabins of commercial airliners will cause many a stroke, the fact is that prior to the mid-70s it was legal and fairly common to do so. Even after a few, rare, high profile hijackings created sufficient public alarm (History does repeat doesn't it?) as to get us to accept being disarmed on planes, pilots routinely carried for a long time. Concerns about a single shot disabling a plane are based almost entirely on Hollywood misinformation.

    That all said, the rare location where disarming the public is truly warranted, also warrants true security rather than relying on the honor system. But even there we have the concerns about efficacy.

    I would like to hope that the relatively small number of visitors to jails and courtrooms means that screening is far more effective than TSAs abysmal failure rate of something like 90% when tested. If only 10% of weapons smuggled in are detected and excluded, then we likely are back to not much more than an honor system with the law abiding not willing to risk a 10% chance of criminal charges, but a dedicated group of bad guys more than willing for 1 of their group to be caught before hand if 9 others can make it through to wreak havoc.

    I suspect large venues like sports arenas with lots of people needing to be cleared in a relatively small amount of time are likely to produce TSA like results rather than doing materially better.

    All of this, of course, ignores the risk to patrons between the point they are able to store their otherwise legally carried weapons and where they enter/leave the secure area. A parked car 2 to 10 blocks away is a long distance. Leaving the gun at home because one took mass transit is an even longer distance and time to be disarmed.

    Which means that truly secure areas need to provide secure storage immediately before the secure checkpoint so as to minimize the distance and time that LACs are disarmed. All legislatively permitted government secure areas in Utah require secure storage at the venue. (Our courthouses continue to enforce gun bans without storage under their powers of contempt of court.)

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Bullet resistant vests w/o trauma plates offer little to no protection against a real blade and they don't protect some of the most lethal points.

    I was thinking about the unarmed trip from home and back w/o means of self-defense.
    This has always been the problem of even the best GFZ, one has to get from point A, to point B.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    What is noteworthy here is that state agency preemption would fix the problem.
    HERE, HERE!!!!!

    State agency preemption would solve a multitude of problems for Virginians and more specifically, Virginian outdoorspeople!
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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