• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

VCU designs another fish barrel

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Note to any BGs who need a safe place to practice their trade.

RICHMOND, VA (WWBT) - "VCU is going to ramp up security at the Siegel Center, starting with Sunday's game with Liberty University at 5 p.m.

Saturday, the VCU Athletic Department announced plans to heighten security for home basketball games. The athletics department says the new safety measures might slow fans down from entering the arena." = no weapons.

http://www.nbc12.com/story/30835053/vcu-increasing-security-for-home-basketball-games

Not really sure what is news worthy here though as VCU has had a long standing rule against guns inside university buildings, if I am not mistaken.
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
I get your point, but as long as they cover ALL entry points, and ALL people coming into the space, this is not a classic "gun free" zone. It has long been my thought (and many others, I suspect) that any place the government wanted to be truly gun free was fine, as long as a) they provided adequate security against crazy people with non-firearms weapons, and b) they ensured that EVERYBODY in the space was equally dis-armed.

Courthouses and secure airport terminals being the general examples, it is this sort of full screening that has usually been too expensive to implement that keeps the "gun free" zone from being an actual gun free zone, and therefore gets people killed.

TFred

ETA: Now... the blocks AROUND the stadium, as spectators walk to and from the event... THAT'S a whole other story, and you are exactly right. Free unarmed victim zone for muggings and hold-ups!!
 
Last edited:

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
Is there some issue that I'm unaware of that has caused this "heightened security?"
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Is there some issue that I'm unaware of that has caused this "heightened security?"
Liberty University is coming to the Siegel Center, some of their students might be carrying, they will be gunning for VCU - you know what they say about that mix :p
I don't expect it, but I'd like to see LU stomp VCU on the hardwoods.

On a more serious note - no known credible evidence of any specific threat. I personally think it is mostly security theater (not all will agree), and would expect a determined individual(s) could breach the perimeter and find no one to oppose them.

Then there is the Ivory Tower mentality complete with magic incantations - we say no weapons and wave our wand = poof, you are safe.
 

paramedic70002

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
1,440
Location
Franklin, VA, Virginia, USA
1. No one can guarantee that a no weapons checkpoint is going to stop all weapons. Even maximum security prisons have weapons found among the populace on a regular basis. The TSA was recently audited and found to regularly allow firearms and other weapons through their sterility checkpoints.

2. Such no weapons equality means nothing when one man is accosted by a gang intent on doing him harm.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
1. No one can guarantee that a no weapons checkpoint is going to stop all weapons. Even maximum security prisons have weapons found among the populace on a regular basis. The TSA was recently audited and found to regularly allow firearms and other weapons through their sterility checkpoints.

2. Such no weapons equality means nothing when one man is accosted by a gang intent on doing him harm.

A janitor or temp employee could likely stash a number of weapons, just waiting for the "unarmed" combatants to enter - jus' saying.....or will they be doing the security dance on every employee, vendor, and contractor too?

I am not opposed to good security, I just don't buy into it as it is being sold. I still want to provide an element of my own.
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Let us not forget the extended exposure/vulnerability of thousands of people to and from these events.........or will VCU provide each of them protection until they have the means to do so for themselves?
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
Note to any BGs who need a safe place to practice their trade.

RICHMOND, VA (WWBT) - "VCU is going to ramp up security at the Siegel Center, starting with Sunday's game with Liberty University at 5 p.m.


[/URL]Not really sure what is news worthy here though as VCU has had a long standing rule against guns inside university buildings, if I am not mistaken.

What is noteworthy here is that state agency preemption would fix the problem.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Of course! How could we have missed this connection?

So speculation: will they institute this policy of enhanced security for ANY other games this season? If not, isn't this some sort of discrimination?

TFred
VCU announced plans to heighten security for home basketball games....that would be all home games.

Sure it is discrimination, just not illegal discrimination,as basketball fans are not a protected class.

If and when televised, those watching from home will not be subject to the same rules/restrictions. :p
 

HPmatt

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
1,468
Location
Dallas
Let us not forget the extended exposure/vulnerability of thousands of people to and from these events.........or will VCU provide each of them protection until they have the means to do so for themselves?

I guess you could attend w bullet-proof vests and ceramic knives...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I guess you could attend w bullet-proof vests and ceramic knives...
Bullet resistant vests w/o trauma plates offer little to no protection against a real blade and they don't protect some of the most lethal points.

I was thinking about the unarmed trip from home and back w/o means of self-defense.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
I get your point, but as long as they cover ALL entry points, and ALL people coming into the space, this is not a classic "gun free" zone. It has long been my thought (and many others, I suspect) that any place the government wanted to be truly gun free was fine, as long as a) they provided adequate security against crazy people with non-firearms weapons, and b) they ensured that EVERYBODY in the space was equally dis-armed.

Courthouses and secure airport terminals being the general examples, it is this sort of full screening that has usually been too expensive to implement that keeps the "gun free" zone from being an actual gun free zone, and therefore gets people killed.

TFred

ETA: Now... the blocks AROUND the stadium, as spectators walk to and from the event... THAT'S a whole other story, and you are exactly right. Free unarmed victim zone for muggings and hold-ups!!

I won't go so far as "any place the government wanted to be truly gun free" being fine. I will concede there are some, rare, areas where there are legitimate security concerns that require disarming the public. Prisons, jails, secure mental hospitals, and possibly court rooms strike me as areas where there are sufficient, legitimate need to disarm the public as to justify disarming the public.

While talking about carrying guns into the cabins of commercial airliners will cause many a stroke, the fact is that prior to the mid-70s it was legal and fairly common to do so. Even after a few, rare, high profile hijackings created sufficient public alarm (History does repeat doesn't it?) as to get us to accept being disarmed on planes, pilots routinely carried for a long time. Concerns about a single shot disabling a plane are based almost entirely on Hollywood misinformation.

That all said, the rare location where disarming the public is truly warranted, also warrants true security rather than relying on the honor system. But even there we have the concerns about efficacy.

I would like to hope that the relatively small number of visitors to jails and courtrooms means that screening is far more effective than TSAs abysmal failure rate of something like 90% when tested. If only 10% of weapons smuggled in are detected and excluded, then we likely are back to not much more than an honor system with the law abiding not willing to risk a 10% chance of criminal charges, but a dedicated group of bad guys more than willing for 1 of their group to be caught before hand if 9 others can make it through to wreak havoc.

I suspect large venues like sports arenas with lots of people needing to be cleared in a relatively small amount of time are likely to produce TSA like results rather than doing materially better.

All of this, of course, ignores the risk to patrons between the point they are able to store their otherwise legally carried weapons and where they enter/leave the secure area. A parked car 2 to 10 blocks away is a long distance. Leaving the gun at home because one took mass transit is an even longer distance and time to be disarmed.

Which means that truly secure areas need to provide secure storage immediately before the secure checkpoint so as to minimize the distance and time that LACs are disarmed. All legislatively permitted government secure areas in Utah require secure storage at the venue. (Our courthouses continue to enforce gun bans without storage under their powers of contempt of court.)

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Bullet resistant vests w/o trauma plates offer little to no protection against a real blade and they don't protect some of the most lethal points.

I was thinking about the unarmed trip from home and back w/o means of self-defense.

This has always been the problem of even the best GFZ, one has to get from point A, to point B.
 

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
What is noteworthy here is that state agency preemption would fix the problem.

HERE, HERE!!!!!

State agency preemption would solve a multitude of problems for Virginians and more specifically, Virginian outdoorspeople!
 
Top